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Wilders endangers his fellow countrymen all over the world YOGYAKARTA - Many are waiting for the moment - unfortunately a big part of the people is only waiting for it for negative reasons - the short move made by Dutch politician Geert Wilders about the Koran, the holy book for Muslims. He wants to show the world that Islam is a religion of violence and that 'their book' - the Koran indeed - is a source of fascism in the religion. That is the very short story and I'm sure other aspects of Islam will be highlighted as well. It is expected that that won't be too positive as well, which is causing that negative feeling. Such a kind of straight-forwarded attack on Islam - or any other religion for that matter - will provoke strong reactions and these will not be limited to the area that we know as The Netherlands.

We all remember the so-called 'cartoon riots', which were caused by a set of drawings of a man with a beard and turban - which is seen by most Moslems as being Muhammad, caused a stir in a number of Islamic countries and countries with an Islamic minority across the globe. It has been some two years now and still every once in a while this subject floats back to the surface again. From one side it was a cartoon that hit target straight on and the man in the picture merely was 'just a person with a beard and a turban and not per se Muhammad'. On the other side a small group of Moslems didn't want to let it go that easy and started to organize protests, only six months after the cartoons were first published.

Dutch politician Geert Wilders on the Binnenhof in Den Haag, The Netherlands.
Dutch politician Geert Wilders on the Binnenhof in Den Haag, The Netherlands.

Protests of course have since stopped. It is of no use obviously to demonstrate against something for two years. You will get tired in the first place and in the second place you don't get anything positive generally spoken. Yeah, you will get a half-hearted excuse, but that's about it. Furthermore the demonstrators did mainly cause damage to property that is not theirs, but not property that belongs to the Danish person that drew the cartoons in the first place. That is what we cal useless, completely useless. It might just be frustration that is building over time. Some are waiting for the next 'provocation' to show themselves again. And that provocation is coming as it seems.

The difference with this earlier provocation - which totally wasn't meant to be one in the first place - is that the pending publication of the next one, a complete short movie in which the Holy Book is earmarked as fascist and completely trashed, has been announces several months ago already. How easy do you want to have it and how stupid can you be. By announcing that you are working on such a plan, it will be clear that you were preparing to insult people in a deep way. Then it is to be expected that the reaction on that will be a prepared one as well.

When I am talking about counter-reactions I am not talking about actions against the person who is the mastermind of this movie - carefully written down because many fear and hope how this chapter in history will end; not too good for Wilders, and that is still a strong understatement. The situation will be bad for Dutch people living abroad as well; an example is Indonesia, with it's largest Muslim population. Fortunately most of them are very moderate with their religion. That is something which I see as very positive every time I read about the stupid plans of Wilders.

A picture of a piece of a page from the holy book for Muslims, the Holy Koran.
A picture of a piece of a page from the holy book for Muslims, the Holy Koran.

That I see this kind of provocation as simply stupid has nothing to do with the fact that The Netherlands is an issue that is far away, or that I happen to live in Indonesia. No, it has to do with the fact that people with some form of education at least have the decency to have a fair discussion in a normal way. It is not needed to provoke a war to directly aim at the so-called 'fascist book', which is the fundament of a religion.

I see myself in a pretty safe environment in Indonesia however. Yes, there are some crazy persons that love to see everything other than Islamic disappear from the earths' surface into some kind of hell as soon as possible, but that group is a fairly small one and also reasonably well mapped out now, so it seems there is not too much danger from that side anymore. The vast majority of people here will probably feel offended in one way or another but will continue with his or her life soon afterwards, because they realize it is something that took place on the other side of the world. A Dutch person who is about to tell the world how everything should be. Not many people are waiting for that here, so most people will not even listen in the first place.

More fear most likely for Dutch people - when you are Dutch you will be seen as 'a friend of that person', so you will get questions about it for sure even if you have never seen that person - which are living in some other countries in the world. Some regimes in this world will exploit the coming situation to the utmost to stage organized demonstrations. Mainly a strong rejection of everything that smells Western will be the target of these demonstrations. Group behavior is different than that of individuals, so these groups will become world news once again. Meanwhile I will be observing how the situation is here.



Posted in General @ 22 January 2008 by Jeroen · 'Blog' RSS feed · permalink





searching
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I wonder why people ALWAYS write like this:

"Such a kind of straight-forwarded attack on Islam - or any other religion for that matter - will provoke strong reactions and these will not be limited to the area that we know as The Netherlands."

This is a blatant lie. Many films have described Jesus as gay or other things. And so what? Please don't HIDE the fascism of Islam by camouflaging it with "strong reaction". They simply want to kill everyone who question or critisize their books.

Is it a normal and acceptable things to always succumb to their TERROR just because of FEAR? If yes, why don't you all convert to Islam. They will fight until all the world is Allah's.



Yerun
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Why should my opinion be a lie? Don't really understand it.

Who is 'they' in your story? I haven't met any of 'them' (which I suppose is islamic people) that want to kill me. I have only refused to meet with a few that had a poster of Bin Laden and Abu Bakar Bashir in their room, because I felt intimidated by it.

Act of free choice it was, no fear or whatsoever, because I have the strong belief (oops, wrong word here) that this kind of things will be leveled out at the end, by 'their own people'.

If the entire world converts to Islam, there will still be the problems we see today, as there are many groups that claim their islam is the only one. Just like with those other religions in the world.

What are you trying to say man?



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The title has been a lie. It's not wilders who endangers you, but the muslims' outrage by the assertion to be made by wilders and their decision to make a collective punishment, like they usually do.

I do apologize to call it a lie. Perhaps you don't even realize that it's a lie.

"or any other religion for that matter "

This small additional hypenation, is also another false statement. Today, it's only Islam and the poor people brainwashed by it (called pious muslims) who will react 'strongly" (even kill). They are the group who issues fatwas for everything.

I am just feeling tired that the media, trying to soften and in fear of seeming to "offend" the "softhearted" muslims, choose to include "any other religions", or "the angry youths". Why can't you, the journalists, write a spade as a spade? The freedom of speech is dying because of terrorism and if we succumb to what they want (show respect, say things that they want to hear), well, THEY win.





Jantje
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(Edited) Posted @ 30 January 2008 09:15





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the ancient history of Indonesia shows the danger of Islamization - they pretended to be all peace loving, but when they come to the power, they were merciless.
I think no Indonesian understand HOW Majapahit was ruined, because it was not written in the history. They never learn WHAT Kian Santang has done to Prabu Siliwangi, his father. They never learned about WHY the temples like borobudur was found BURRIED. Because learning about that will show the evil of Islam. The Indonesian history books always say that Islam come to Indonesia and was spread in peaceful manner.

If Europe doesn't learn from this, in the near future they will become Islamic as Middle Eastern.



sidia
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(Edited) Posted @ 01 February 2008 08:42


On 01-02-2008 06:12 searching wrote:
I think no Indonesian understand HOW Majapahit was ruined, because it was not written in the history. They never learn WHAT Kian Santang has done to Prabu Siliwangi, his father.

They never learned about WHY the temples like borobudur was found BURRIED.


Do you know then ?
Pse tell us.

Also abt the Sundanese part , I am curious because I am Indonesian, moslim, partly sundanese with Galuh roots.

terima kasih



sidia
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(Edited) Posted @ 01 February 2008 11:45


On 01-02-2008 06:12 searching wrote:
If Europe doesnt learn from this, in the near future they will become Islamic as Middle Eastern.


Yes indeed , but you forget to mentioned Cordoba and Constatinopel .
And as we know the turkey are coming to Western Europe as a new member of the European Community. Emoticon: Smile
More than 70 .000.000 moslim will be the new European citizens.
What about the numbers of Moslim in the Netherlands , France , Germany ?
They are allready among us . Emoticon: Nice



JohanN
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The bullshit of the so called problems with religions is keeping alive by stupid postings like this and the stupid replies on it by people who can not do anything at this issue anyway.



sidia
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On 01-02-2008 14:15 JohanN wrote:
The bullshit of the so called problems with religions is keeping alive postings like this and the stupid replies on it by people who caby stupid n not do anything at this issue anyway.


Is keeping alive with posting and stupid replies .
Yes , indeed Emoticon: Party!



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The Prabu Siliwangi was chased by Kian Santang, his son because he refused to enter Islam.
As a sundanese, have you ever wondered that you never listen to this history?

www.pikiran-rakyat.com/cetak/0303/27/0324.htm

"Yes indeed , but you forget to mentioned Cordoba and Constatinopel .
And as we know the turkey are coming to Western Europe as a new member of the European Community.
More than 70 .000.000 moslim will be the new European citizens.
What about the numbers of Moslim in the Netherlands , France , Germany ?
They are allready among us ."

Not yet. The Europeans are starting to realize the danger of Islam. We also will fight to let them know, to encourage them to read more on Islam from the Quran and Hadiths. We need MORE information on Islam so we know the real Islam.

"The bullshit of the so called problems with religions is keeping alive by stupid postings like this and the stupid replies on it by people who can not do anything at this issue anyway."

The stupidity only lies in a people who think that death FATWA againsts people who express different opinion on a certain religion as something normal, or Sharia punishments as something normal, while in fact the muslims WANT to apply it, even in Canada, Europe, etc (the last time one of the imam in England 'offers' Sharia Law to England).



sidia
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On 02-02-2008 17:16 searching wrote:

Not yet. The Europeans are starting to realize the danger of Islam. We also will fight to let them know, to encourage them to read more on Islam from the Quran and Hadiths. We need MORE information on Islam so we know the real Islam.

".

Are starting to "realize " because of Mr Bush. Or after 9-11.
The Moslims are living more than 40(fourty) years in the Netherlands.
And even more longer in France.
They always live peacefully with the dutch or the french.

If you need more info abt Islam , pse read the Al-Qur' an.



searching
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Sidia,

Have you read what happened to Prabu Siliwangi. If you are a sundanese of course you know him. But have you ever learned in INDONESIAN HISTORY that he was chased by Kian Santang his son because he refused to convert to Islam? answer with yes or not.
I myself, I never knew that until I read in internet.

"Are starting to "realize " because of Mr Bush. Or after 9-11.
The Moslims are living more than 40(fourty) years in the Netherlands.
And even more longer in France.
They always live peacefully with the dutch or the french.
"

Are you trying to fool yourself? Live peacefully. Then whom do you think making the French riots. And how about the brussel incidence?

"If you need more info abt Islam , pse read the Al-Qur' an. "

Al Quran, and ahadiths, of course. Can you understand Al Quran without ahadiths? Al Quran is NOT sequential, and was compiled based on the lenght of verses. without ahadiths like Bukhari, you may NEVER know how to do 4 of the 5 pillars in Islam.
IF you read only Quran...hahaha, have you read Surah Al Taubah? Beautiful, isn't it? (in sarcastic mode).
I have a politically incorrect guide about islam and the crusades. If you want, I can send you so you can check and learn about it.



sidia
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On 03-02-2008 06:52 searching wrote:
I have a politically incorrect guide about islam and the crusades. If you want, I can send you so you can check and learn about it.


Political incorrect guide . ?
You have name it by yrself ,its incorrect.

Of course you must read it with the eye ,the brain and knowledge and the context of the 21 century .
Otherwise you will think and act the same as some of fundamentalist . Emoticon: Smile



searching
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Sidia,

Politically incorrect means it's not politically correct - means it's designed so it's politically acceptable.

"Of course you must read it with the eye ,the brain and knowledge and the context of the 21 century .
Otherwise you will think and act the same as some of fundamentalist "

Agree with that. So are you saying that the practice prescribed by Quran and ahadiths by the example of Mohammed are not applicable anymore in the modern world?

If so, then I am relieved to find a muslim like you. Hope all muslim will become like you.



sidia
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 February 2008 12:33


On 04-02-2008 05:13 searching wrote:


*So are you saying that the practice prescribed by Quran and ahadiths by the example of Mohammed are not applicable anymore in the modern world?

**If so, then I am relieved to find a muslim like you. Hope all muslim will become like you.

*No , depends yr own choise. We are free to make a choise.
Dont forget , most of the moslim in Indonesia are abangan.
.
Imho people in the west are not friendly against the moslim and islam .
Because terorist action from some of moslim.
Its better if that they fight against the terorist , but they (the so called western) make a big mistake to fight Islam and they forget the people , the "abangans" behind the Islams.

** Be careful , maybe I am not a "good"moslim.Or a "fundamentalist" , not a purist.
But take for sure that I always have my right to defend myself , my belief etc



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"*No , depends yr own choise. We are free to make a choise.
Dont forget , most of the moslim in Indonesia are abangan."

I don't get what you mean. You can see the social practices in the era of Mohammed (raping Prisoner of Wars, etc) are not acceptable by modern value. So what choice do you mean? You can choose to practise or try to impose the sharia to people, but it means that you are no different than the terrorists like Osama bin Laden. What's the difference?

"Imho people in the west are not friendly against the moslim and islam .
Because terorist action from some of moslim."

People with different culture always have some kind of 'culture prejudice' against others. The same thing happens that people in Arab Saudi are not kind to pagans and to kuffr just like me. The difference is that in the west the law protects you against racism (please keep in mind that Islam and muslim is not a RACE).

"Its better if that they fight against the terorist , but they (the so called western) make a big mistake to fight Islam and they forget the people , the "abangans" behind the Islams."

The value of terrorism lie deep in the teaching of Mohammed, as we can see in Quran and Hadiths. I have quoted the verses long time ago in a discussion with you: "Slay the unbeliever whereever you find them" is written in Quran, and scary enough this order has NO time limit, and it's not abrogated because they are among the latest verses. In the history, we know that it was the time Mohammed gained power and started to spread Islam by sword.

"** Be careful , maybe I am not a "good"moslim.Or a "fundamentalist" , not a purist.
But take for sure that I always have my right to defend myself , my belief etc "

You can defend Islam, I don't mind that. All I ask is a decency to accept the proofs I mentioned long ago, that Islam is not really a peaceful religion as some politically correct people try to convince us. And Mohammed's hands were fulll of blood of innocent people that it's hard to believe a real God will choose that kind of man as a prophet.

Please don't defend Islam by terrorizing people not to questiion it, and keep issuing death fatwa and threat. It only proves that Islam is not a peaceful religion and cannot reason decently.



sidia
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(Edited) Posted @ 05 February 2008 10:12


On 05-02-2008 04:54 searching wrote:
Please dont defend Islam by terrorizing people not to questiion it, and keep issuing death fatwa and threat. It only proves that Islam is not a peaceful religion and cannot reason decently.


I only use my right to defense myzelf(family) and belief.
Its a universal right. And I think that the moderate moslim or the abangans in indonesia will NOT go after the unbeliever(who are they)? and slay them with golok.We are living in 21 century.

It is yr choise if you wil read theQur'an , hadith etc like some people and some moslim(terorist) .They are slaying with goloks , fighting again the " other " side .
Its not my choise , and I am sure also not the choise of the abangans, Islam KTP etc.My other fellow moslim.
But take for sure I will fight back if someone attack me .



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"I only use my right to defense myzelf(family) and belief."

Who wants to harm you or your family? And to what extent you want to defend your belief? To the extent of killing other people who say that Islam is not a peaceful religion by showing you the proof from Islamic Sources?

"Its a universal right. And I think that the moderate moslim or the abangans in indonesia will NOT go after the unbeliever(who are they)? and slay them with golok.We are living in 21 century."

So it means that you believe some of the verses in Quran are out of date? I sense so, but at the same time I also feel that you are really attached to Islam. Why? Have you ever checked the verses I gave you?

"It is yr choise if you wil read theQur'an , hadith etc like some people and some moslim(terorist) .They are slaying with goloks , fighting again the " other " side ".

So if someone doesn't read Quran and hadiths and do what is prescribed there how a muslim knows how to behave as a muslim? You get me confused. A believer will do what is prescribed by the holy book of the religion he believes in. Or is it not the case?

"Its not my choise , and I am sure also not the choise of the abangans, Islam KTP etc.My other fellow moslim.
But take for sure I will fight back if someone attack me ."

I am glad on that. But once again what do you mean by "attacking"? The problem is the islam KTP are those who seldom read Islam and are not really into Islam. And most of them are good people, even better than some other religions' believers.
It's the pious muslims that we must be afraid of. Abu Bakar Basyir, Imam Samudra, they are really into Islam.
But every muslim has a potency of becoming Abu Bakar Basyir or Imam Samudra, when they stay muslims. There will be time when they are afraid of death or others, and want to be close to heaven and think that doing what is prescribed by Quran and Hadiths will save them.

That's the potency that I would like to diminish, by engaging as many people as I can into this dialogue.



sidia
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(Edited) Posted @ 05 February 2008 12:19


On 05-02-2008 11:31 searching wrote:
Thats the potency that I would like to diminish, by engaging as many people as I can into this dialogue.

Dialogue ? Only dialogue , to understand what or who the moslims are ?

I am a moslim , living in the Netherlands for decades.
We have always live in freedom and peace with the Dutch.
Since 9-11 and a crazy action of a moslim terorist in amsterdam we (the moslims in general) get problems with some crazy people like Wilders .

He is attacking Islam en Qur'an .
My personal opinion , if people want to live peacefully with me and my fellow (moderate )moslims in holland , is O.K.
We respect the Dutch Law , we are for the time being guest in Holland.
But if they insulting or attacking us instead of the moslim terorist , then we have a problem . We have also our right.
Wilders cs must work with us(the moderates,) instead attacking all moslims or the qur'an.



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"Dialogue ? Only dialogue , to understand what or who the moslims are ?"

Dialogue to reveal what Islam really teaches. Not the kind people want to believe. That's why some people really hate me in this site.

" am a moslim , living in the Netherlands for decades.
We have always live in freedom and peace with the Dutch."

Have you ever thank the Dutch Law for that? Many people don't have that priviledge living in countries with sharia laws. The last information I have women in Atcheh must wear jilbab.

"Since 9-11 and a crazy action of a moslim terorist in amsterdam we (the moslims in general) get problems with some crazy people like Wilders ."

When you start to think that somehow muslims also must relfect and consider that some of the treatments they have is the responsibility of muslims? Of course you know the concept of Ummah. That's why some muslims in Indonesia will scream to defend Palestine while they close their eyes even to the bali bombing.

"He is attacking Islam en Qur'an ."

He is attacking values of Islam written in Quran. He is not harming you or anyone else. So do you think he deserves to die or any dutch must die because of that?

"My personal opinion , if people want to live peacefully with me and my fellow (moderate )moslims in holland , is O.K.
We respect the Dutch Law , we are for the time being guest in Holland. "

Good for that.

"But if they insulting or attacking us instead of the moslim terorist , then we have a problem . We have also our right.
Wilders cs must work with us(the moderates,) instead attacking all moslims or the qur'an. "

Who is atttacking you? Wilders wants to tell us something about Quran. Does he attack you? Why you think so? Do you think the muslim terrorists also attack you for "misleading people" into thinking that Islam is not peaceful? But why you are angry with Wilders etc? Why you, muslims, don't get upset with terrorists and start to help the police in finding them, cooperating with them in revealing all the acts not in accordance to Dutch Laws?

So far, you, moderate muslims, are silent. You scream for Guantanamo, for Palestine, but you are silent when the victims are not muslims. With your double standard why must we feel guilty of revealing that Quran doesn't teach us on peace, but instead, on WAR and on doing what Allah wants (i.e. dominating the world?).











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Long ago, I mentioned a pool on muslims in England that a big percentage of muslims will NOT betray fellow muslims, even if the muslims are engaged in terrorism activities.
Do you mean that they ARE also terrorists? No, they are all moderates, just like you, with a great sense of Ukhuwah Islamiyah.



sidia
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On 06-02-2008 11:33 searching wrote:
Long ago, I mentioned a pool on muslims in England that a big percentage of muslims will NOT betray fellow muslims, even if the muslims are engaged in terrorism activities.
Do you mean that they ARE also terrorists? No, they are all moderates, just like you, with a great sense of Ukhuwah Islamiyah.


I dont know who they are , and its not my problem . Emoticon: Smile




marcel70
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(Edited) Posted @ 07 February 2008 05:11

sidia,
This is your problem because they give a bad name to the islam.
But just by giving this type of statement it shows how big the problem is.
The moderate moslim like you say you are ,dont care what happend.


This is a big problem the moderate moslim if they care and they know something they should go to the police.
Why they not go to the police?
Citaat: from moderate moslim:I dont know who they are , and its not my problem .

wassalam



alex kidd
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muslims are among us a very long time in Holland,suddenly it's like a killing plague, it's nothing more then a stupid media hype causing mass hysteria.

i like muslim people, just throw your television out of the window, and go chat with your muslim neighbour.Don't forget your antrax masker, or bulletproof vest..

raather focus on our new friends on Poland, in my opinion that's more of an plague.Are they like what? Fugitives from the great Warschau War?

no intergration needed, no ' license to stay' or intergrate course, can just live here , the new lowerclass has arrived to riot up the spot, and they build special houses for them!I have some at my work, at first there were like 2 but now there are like 15 and multiplying, some are gonna bring their family.

That's not fair!

What's the policy on that topic ?





Emoticon: Yummie!



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"muslims are among us a very long time in Holland,suddenly it's like a killing plague, it's nothing more then a stupid media hype causing mass hysteria."

Really. Are you sure?

"i like muslim people, just throw your television out of the window, and go chat with your muslim neighbour.Don't forget your antrax masker, or bulletproof vest.."

Who says that muslims are bad people. They are nice people, except when dealing with their religion, Islam. So, is it a wonder that we need to know more about Islam?

"raather focus on our new friends on Poland, in my opinion that's more of an plague.Are they like what? Fugitives from the great Warschau War?"

Are they threatening the politicians or people who don't agree with them or criticize hem?

"no intergration needed, no ' license to stay' or intergrate course, can just live here , the new lowerclass has arrived to riot up the spot, and they build special houses for them!I have some at my work, at first there were like 2 but now there are like 15 and multiplying, some are gonna bring their family.

That's not fair!

What's the policy on that topic ?"

I believe the immigration law should be good enough to handle the case. But why you divert from the subject? It's not polish people who will endanger hollanders everywhere.






graecus
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Your interpretation of the Wilders controversy, that he is putting others in danger, is distorted. He is speaking his mind, as West Europeans have always been expected to do. Danes did not cause the cartoon riots, or put people at risk. That was the doing of the ignoramuses, such as we see hounding Christians and dissidents here. Today's danger emanates from the primitives who have been allowed into Holland and ought to be put out promptly. The film maker Van Gogh was brutally murdered by a savage in Holland a few years ago, purely for his opinions. The same racaille are running amok in France, where decent Muslims who dress like normal people are attacked and disfigured by primitives in the banlieues, while a glance through the uncensored pages of the Brussels Journal will confirm that - especially in Antwerp - alien savages often run wild, thinking they are the masters. In Sweden, uninvited aliens have paraded with banners saying 'Ours in 2030,' a reference to their intention to breed out Swedes, as they will be doing elsewhere, with your lovely Holland at high risk, a small country with spineless establishment parties, who won't take a stand for Dutch traditional values.
Nor only in Holland -the UK Government has just kow-towed to backward intruders by authorising welfare benefits to polygamous aliens. Let's be clear -Wilders had to be guarded by security forces for his opinions, as did the brave Hirsi Ali, another 'prisoner of conscience' due to Islamic intolerance. They are not the menace. Their, our, enemies are.



Yerun
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Graecus; de Danish guy who drew the cartoons was not targetting to create a hype and trying to attach a religion head on, Wilders IS doing that with his short film that will be named 'Fitnah'.

For the rest I agree with you that we shuould protect what values we have created in history. They should not be given away as easy as we do now. But hope that the European cultures will exist another 30 years longer.. no I don't have that actually, because they are all spineless countries, the Netherlands is just the smallest one of them Emoticon: Wink



graecus
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 EXCHANGE RATES
EUR-IDR: 16,590 · 16,620  The Rupiah rate declined since yesterday
@ 17 May 2018 18:12 CET
JPY-IDR: 126.83 · 126.95  The Rupiah rate improved since yesterday
@ 17 May 2018 21:58 CET
MYR-IDR: 3,545 · 3,549  The Rupiah rate declined since yesterday
@ 15 May 2018 08:42 CET
SGD-IDR: 10,479 · 10,501  The Rupiah rate declined since yesterday
@ 07 May 2018 07:48 CET
THB-IDR: 439.14 · 439.41  The Rupiah rate declined since yesterday
@ 16 May 2018 09:18 CET
USD-IDR: 14,097 · 14,157  The Rupiah rate declined since yesterday
@ 17 May 2018 00:46 CET
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