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Makeup led to woman's branding as prostitute TANGERANG - Every humiliating moment of that day is etched in Lilies Lindawati's memory. She still smarts at the indignity of being branded a prostitute as she stood before a jeering crowd in a "show trial" for Tangerang's new prostitution bylaw. "I felt like I was being raped in front of those people who laughed at me after the judge ruled I was a prostitute, simply because the law and order officers found a makeup compact and a lipstick in my bag," a tearful Lilies told The Jakarta Post in her rented home in Tangerang.

Two months' pregnant at the time, she was arrested on Feb. 27 under the newly introduced Tangerang bylaw governing prostitution and public behavior, with her story widely reported in the media. She is refusing to be quiet despite the humiliating experience, and has reported Tangerang Mayor Wahidin Halim to the police for wrongful arrest and defamation of character.

Public order officers arrested the 35-year-old as she waited for a public minivan at the side of the street one evening. It was a cool evening and she had put on a jacket. It was 7 p.m., and she was returning after an unsuccessful attempt to secure her final month's pay from her workplace, a restaurant that closed the week before. She needed it to pay for her daughter's school fees.

Suddenly, she was shocked as five public order officers approached and, calling her a prostitute, bundled her into a van. "I asked them why they were arresting me, but they said to save it for later at their office. I told them that I had a husband, but they ignored me." She described a chaotic scene as 20 officers rounded up all the women in the area, including, she said, two teenagers eating at a sidewalk cafe and a 63-year-old buying rambutan on the side of the road.

Lilies said she tried to protest her innocence, giving her ID card to one of the officers, but they considered her makeup to be evidence enough that she was soliciting for sex. She does not own a cellular phone and could not contact her elementary school teacher husband. She was detained for the night, with her trial and that of the others scheduled for the next day. It coincided with the anniversary of Tangerang city, and expectations of convictions were high as the women caught the night before were led out into a makeshift court set up in a park adjacent to City Hall.

"Lots of government officials and residents were gathered there. They were laughing at us as if we were part of a show," she said. She was terrified by the judge's questioning. "I felt humiliated. I cried and told them that I had a husband. But I could not have him there to the trial to prove it since I was not allowed to call him." The judge agreed with the arresting officers that she was a prostitute from the evidence of her makeup, and gave her the option of paying a Rp 300,000 fine or spending three days in jail. She only had Rp 10,000 on her, but, "even if I had had the Rp 300,000, I would not have paid it because I am no prostitute".

A reporter from Kompas daily attending the trial took down Lilies' address and contacted her husband, Kustoyo. He said he had been desperate to find his wife when she did not come home. "The journalist told me that my wife had been put in front of many people as a prostitute. I felt like I was dying," he said. "My wife was only helping me support our family by working in that restaurant. What had she done wrong?"

The incident was embarrassing for the whole family, and Lilies is still reluctant to leave her home. When the Post asked her husband whether he would support his wife in her legal battle, Kustoyo wept and was silent for a moment. "They (the Tangerang Education agency) made me sign an agreement that I would not take the mayor to court," said the 20-year teaching veteran. But he added he was willing to lose his job to support his wife.

Yan Apul, Lilies's lawyer, said that the mayor could be charged because he did not have the authority to dictate the conduct of residents. "Teachers are figures who can influence conduct, not the mayor. We will demand that he provide Rp 500 billion in restitution," he said. He added the judge was at fault in sentencing Lilies without adequate proof of wrongdoing. "Even if Lilies were a prostitute, Article No. 4, Point 1 of the bylaw states that she must be returned to her family. However, the judge sent her to jail," he said.

Isma from the Tangerang office of the Indonesian Women's Coalition said there were 15 other women with similar experiences of wrongful arrest. "I know that they are scared to say anything now. But I encourage them to do the same thing as Lilies because they were humiliated," she said. Tangerang Mayor Wahidin Halim said that his administration had submitted a draft of guidelines on enforcement of the bylaw. In order to prevent further wrongful arrest, the guidelines clearly define the criteria used in the bylaw to avoid further wrongful arrests.

He added he would take stern measures against any the officers who erred in the enforcement of the bylaw. The general secretary of the Home Ministry, Progo Nurdjaman, said his office would review the Tangerang bylaw. "The problem is in the implementation. I have asked the mayor to make guidelines," he said, acknowledging concerns it violated human rights.


Related blog entries (category 'Human rights') Related blog entries (category 'Human rights'):
04 May 2006 · 5,000 evacuated, first lava oozes from Mount Merapi
03 May 2006 · River of lava ready to hit villages near Merapi
02 May 2006 · China firms in US$7 billion deal with Indonesia
27 April 2006 · Expert: Merapi volcano in no rush to erupt
27 April 2006 · Study warns residents to keep safe distance
07 April 2006 · Keep your kisses short in Tangerang


Posted in Human rights @ 04 May 2006 09:25 CET by Jeroen · 'Blog' RSS feed · permalink





Jeroen
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(Moderated) Posted @ 04 May 2006 09:40

Nice, those local bylaws Emoticon: Talk to the hand I used to hear this from f*cking Iran



Jeroen
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(Moderated) Posted @ 04 May 2006 09:40

Nice, those local bylaws Emoticon: Talk to the hand I used to hear this from f*cking Iran



londoh
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 09:49

Is this an opinion ? Or just remarks from someone who just woke up and did not drink his cafe yet Emoticon: Clown



londoh
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 09:49

Is this an opinion ? Or just remarks from someone who just woke up and did not drink his cafe yet Emoticon: Clown



Jesses
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This bylaw suits the local police very well, of course. Just fine any girl/woman who seems to have paid some attention to her looks. Easy money...



Jesses
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This bylaw suits the local police very well, of course. Just fine any girl/woman who seems to have paid some attention to her looks. Easy money...



Jantje
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It will take generations for these agama maniacs to think rationally. Maybe never happens. I'll ask my avatar to make some inquiries over there. Emoticon: Nice



Jantje
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It will take generations for these agama maniacs to think rationally. Maybe never happens. I'll ask my avatar to make some inquiries over there. Emoticon: Nice



belgianguy
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I think we gonna be reading more and more horror stories like that
sharia bylaws are already in force in 18 regencies across indonesia
the main problem is that those laws affect everybody, also non-moslims
how about this one: in padang, a local sharia bylaw requires all schoolgirls to wear the jilbab, also if they aren't moslim!
the town I live in (in east java) is also moving in that direction
a fanatic moslim minority is imposing its will on the silent majority
it's just a matter of time I guess



belgianguy
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I think we gonna be reading more and more horror stories like that
sharia bylaws are already in force in 18 regencies across indonesia
the main problem is that those laws affect everybody, also non-moslims
how about this one: in padang, a local sharia bylaw requires all schoolgirls to wear the jilbab, also if they aren't moslim!
the town I live in (in east java) is also moving in that direction
a fanatic moslim minority is imposing its will on the silent majority
it's just a matter of time I guess



Jesses
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They're just a bunch of cowards and hypocrits. With all these 'noble' ideas they have about improving morality they just try to purify their own soul. They are bargaining with Allah.

It's the same everywhere: I live close to Bunschoten-Spakenburg (black stockings) and have worked there for some time. Recently, a project developer tried to build a disco or something over there (maybe it was even a brothel). "No, no," everyone shouted, " It will attract prostitutes and other low lives." So, the plan was cancelled.

Shortly after this debate, it came out that the youth who worked in the fishing-industry where actually paid in coke ! (cocaine, I mean, not cola)

Meanwhile, one of the main features of Bunschoten-Spakenburg society, is the continuing competition among no less than 7 different types of churches. So, how can we ever take seriously any 'moralistic' debate within such a society.

O, by the way. There is an Afghan movie about a little girl who dresses up like a boy to dodge some sexist laws in taliban ruled Afghanistan. At the end she is unmasked and sold to an ulama, or something. Does anyone know the title?





Jesses
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They're just a bunch of cowards and hypocrits. With all these 'noble' ideas they have about improving morality they just try to purify their own soul. They are bargaining with Allah.

It's the same everywhere: I live close to Bunschoten-Spakenburg (black stockings) and have worked there for some time. Recently, a project developer tried to build a disco or something over there (maybe it was even a brothel). "No, no," everyone shouted, " It will attract prostitutes and other low lives." So, the plan was cancelled.

Shortly after this debate, it came out that the youth who worked in the fishing-industry where actually paid in coke ! (cocaine, I mean, not cola)

Meanwhile, one of the main features of Bunschoten-Spakenburg society, is the continuing competition among no less than 7 different types of churches. So, how can we ever take seriously any 'moralistic' debate within such a society.

O, by the way. There is an Afghan movie about a little girl who dresses up like a boy to dodge some sexist laws in taliban ruled Afghanistan. At the end she is unmasked and sold to an ulama, or something. Does anyone know the title?





belgianguy
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yes jesse I have the movie right here it's called osama
it was a golden globe winner




belgianguy
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yes jesse I have the movie right here it's called osama
it was a golden globe winner




londoh
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I have to laugh so much about the conclusions people make after reading something in the newspaper. Daily life in Indo is quite different than these sour comments made by those Dutch who know exactly how the world must be ruled. In fact they know all, so clever those dikebuilding grocers (...searching for a nice "boomaap" eqquivalent)

Emoticon: Yes!



londoh
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I have to laugh so much about the conclusions people make after reading something in the newspaper. Daily life in Indo is quite different than these sour comments made by those Dutch who know exactly how the world must be ruled. In fact they know all, so clever those dikebuilding grocers (...searching for a nice "boomaap" eqquivalent)

Emoticon: Yes!



belgianguy
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well no londoh this isn't something we just read in newspapers...when I first got settled in my little east java town there was some nightlife (mainly karaoke), it was no problem to buy beer (there was a bintang dealership in town) but recently simple things like that are becoming a problem for the moslims here and it was all shut down, now there is only one (chinese) shop left that sells beer, and they also had to take down the (small) bintang sign
these are just small things but indicative of the mood here
the new bupati wants to make this a kota santri, and take away all the fun things (no hookers no booze no drugs) how boring



belgianguy
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well no londoh this isn't something we just read in newspapers...when I first got settled in my little east java town there was some nightlife (mainly karaoke), it was no problem to buy beer (there was a bintang dealership in town) but recently simple things like that are becoming a problem for the moslims here and it was all shut down, now there is only one (chinese) shop left that sells beer, and they also had to take down the (small) bintang sign
these are just small things but indicative of the mood here
the new bupati wants to make this a kota santri, and take away all the fun things (no hookers no booze no drugs) how boring



londoh
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Night life like karaoke, bars and the like are not part of Indonesian culture, but Western apalagi when Indonesians start to drink alcohol they become extremely boring, and often aggresive. When there is booze there will be also prostitution. If you want to have this kind of life around you, better move to a bigger town, Surabaya for example, many hookers, lots of dope and booze. Very simple.



londoh
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Night life like karaoke, bars and the like are not part of Indonesian culture, but Western apalagi when Indonesians start to drink alcohol they become extremely boring, and often aggresive. When there is booze there will be also prostitution. If you want to have this kind of life around you, better move to a bigger town, Surabaya for example, many hookers, lots of dope and booze. Very simple.



Jesses
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"Night life like karaoke, bars and the like are not part of Indonesian culture"

What do you mean, Londoh? Indonesian people do not visit these kind of places? Since this kind of entertainment does not originate in Indonesia, it does not belong there?

I have some friends in Bogor who use to go to the Puncak in the weekend. Not because of the scenery, but because of the beer and the boobs. It surely is part of their culture.






Jesses
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"Night life like karaoke, bars and the like are not part of Indonesian culture"

What do you mean, Londoh? Indonesian people do not visit these kind of places? Since this kind of entertainment does not originate in Indonesia, it does not belong there?

I have some friends in Bogor who use to go to the Puncak in the weekend. Not because of the scenery, but because of the beer and the boobs. It surely is part of their culture.






Jantje
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On 04-05-2006 11:56 Jesses wrote:
but because of the beer and the boobs.

Emoticon: Nice



Jantje
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On 04-05-2006 11:56 Jesses wrote:
but because of the beer and the boobs.

Emoticon: Nice



londoh
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On 04-05-2006 11:56 Jesses wrote:
I have some friends in Bogor who use to go to the Puncak in the weekend. Not because of the scenery, but because of the beer and the boobs. It surely is part of their culture.


Mr. Jesses,

I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians. Comparing with what I have seen in this country their behaviour is far from common. Don't mix up the things you like and want to do with how average people behave in Indonesia



londoh
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On 04-05-2006 11:56 Jesses wrote:
I have some friends in Bogor who use to go to the Puncak in the weekend. Not because of the scenery, but because of the beer and the boobs. It surely is part of their culture.


Mr. Jesses,

I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians. Comparing with what I have seen in this country their behaviour is far from common. Don't mix up the things you like and want to do with how average people behave in Indonesia



Agung
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I guess there is something between "going for the boobs" and "punishing a woman because of having lipstick".... That is just behaving normal.

But, back to the subject.

Branding a woman as being a prostitute, because she has make up in her bag is a very serious issue and of course once more a step of this country on its way to becoming the next Afghanistan. Emoticon: Angry



Agung
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I guess there is something between "going for the boobs" and "punishing a woman because of having lipstick".... That is just behaving normal.

But, back to the subject.

Branding a woman as being a prostitute, because she has make up in her bag is a very serious issue and of course once more a step of this country on its way to becoming the next Afghanistan. Emoticon: Angry



Jesses
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"I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians"

No, presumably not, mr. Londoh. But I think you are too much occupied with the "average" Indonesian in this matter and with THE Indonesian culture as a fixed set of norms and values, and with it should be like. It doen't suit this topic.

But yes, I must admit: my own judgements about the norms and valuIes of some people might be a bit hasty (refering to the cowards and hypocrits and their "victims"). I truly wish I could meet some of them.



Jesses
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"I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians"

No, presumably not, mr. Londoh. But I think you are too much occupied with the "average" Indonesian in this matter and with THE Indonesian culture as a fixed set of norms and values, and with it should be like. It doen't suit this topic.

But yes, I must admit: my own judgements about the norms and valuIes of some people might be a bit hasty (refering to the cowards and hypocrits and their "victims"). I truly wish I could meet some of them.



Albert
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 12:37

Jilbab, Burka and all other things.

The meaning of it is this; We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control their dig (penis).
It is not needed that we Muslim man should adjust, no woman should adjust to us horney guys.

If God wanted woman to be covered he would not had made them so beautiful (In general).





Albert
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 12:37

Jilbab, Burka and all other things.

The meaning of it is this; We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control their dig (penis).
It is not needed that we Muslim man should adjust, no woman should adjust to us horney guys.

If God wanted woman to be covered he would not had made them so beautiful (In general).





Jesses
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We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control their dig (penis).

I didn't know muslim women could have a penis, too. This makes the whole sexual morality issue far more interesting Emoticon: Laugh out loud



Jesses
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We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control their dig (penis).

I didn't know muslim women could have a penis, too. This makes the whole sexual morality issue far more interesting Emoticon: Laugh out loud



Albert
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With that new law, girls wo are on the street in the evening are branded as a prostitute. What about them who are working in shift. They need to work in a factory at night. So when they go home they are being arrested as a protitute. All because of that stupid porno law.

Like I said many time in here they should pay more attention to the price of Nasi and Suker. But like always such sensitive subjects are carefully hidden from the public. But also in this forum. Nobody seems to be willing to talk about.

Also the Indonesian when buying a car.
They like to pay more attention to a little spot with corrosion on the care then about the quality of the car.
This you can put in many daily subjects in live.



Albert
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With that new law, girls wo are on the street in the evening are branded as a prostitute. What about them who are working in shift. They need to work in a factory at night. So when they go home they are being arrested as a protitute. All because of that stupid porno law.

Like I said many time in here they should pay more attention to the price of Nasi and Suker. But like always such sensitive subjects are carefully hidden from the public. But also in this forum. Nobody seems to be willing to talk about.

Also the Indonesian when buying a car.
They like to pay more attention to a little spot with corrosion on the care then about the quality of the car.
This you can put in many daily subjects in live.



londoh
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I only compare with what I have experienced during my stay in Indonesia. I always lived in small towns and have seen many strange events, that were very contradicted with the things I have learned as being proper. But there is something like adoption to another culture (that is athing else many people in the Netherlands can talk for hours about) For me Indonesia is a very different society than the Netherlands, which country of non-believers became extremely anti-muslim the last couple of years. Please do mind that I am not a fan of this primitive believe, but in most parts of Indonesia one has to accept that the people are muslim, and behave according to that. Most of the people who write on this forum do not live in Indonesia. They just react after reading something from a newspaper and give their "opinion" even compare Indonesia with countries like Iran and Afghanistan, as if they know by heart what is going on there. I am always wondering what these people are telling about Islam when they stay in Indonesia. My "average" Indonesian will feel very insulted about so much rudeness that is full of intolerance and misunderstanding, if they will tell around the same ideas as they write about on this forum.

Lon



londoh
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I only compare with what I have experienced during my stay in Indonesia. I always lived in small towns and have seen many strange events, that were very contradicted with the things I have learned as being proper. But there is something like adoption to another culture (that is athing else many people in the Netherlands can talk for hours about) For me Indonesia is a very different society than the Netherlands, which country of non-believers became extremely anti-muslim the last couple of years. Please do mind that I am not a fan of this primitive believe, but in most parts of Indonesia one has to accept that the people are muslim, and behave according to that. Most of the people who write on this forum do not live in Indonesia. They just react after reading something from a newspaper and give their "opinion" even compare Indonesia with countries like Iran and Afghanistan, as if they know by heart what is going on there. I am always wondering what these people are telling about Islam when they stay in Indonesia. My "average" Indonesian will feel very insulted about so much rudeness that is full of intolerance and misunderstanding, if they will tell around the same ideas as they write about on this forum.

Lon



pretbek
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In the line of this story... I heard that a law forbids lady's in Jakarta to be out on the streets after 21:00. Indonesian men told me that quite often females with business jobs get in trouble (since they work late and sometimes also wear skirts). Of course, this law was initiated to prevent streetprostitution. But I can't seem to understand why this has to lead to restricting the freedom, and humiliation, of other people. (Also I'm not really sure whether wat I was told is true)
Is this normal politics in a country I'm just beginning to try to understand? (suppose it will take me longtime...)



pretbek
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In the line of this story... I heard that a law forbids lady's in Jakarta to be out on the streets after 21:00. Indonesian men told me that quite often females with business jobs get in trouble (since they work late and sometimes also wear skirts). Of course, this law was initiated to prevent streetprostitution. But I can't seem to understand why this has to lead to restricting the freedom, and humiliation, of other people. (Also I'm not really sure whether wat I was told is true)
Is this normal politics in a country I'm just beginning to try to understand? (suppose it will take me longtime...)



pretbek
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sorry, didn't see the last messages.....



pretbek
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sorry, didn't see the last messages.....



sidia
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On 04-05-2006 12:33 Jesses wrote:
"I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians"

No, presumably not, mr. Londoh. But I think you are too much occupied with the "average" Indonesian in this matter and with THE Indonesian culture as a fixed set of norms and values, and with it should be like. It doent suit this topic.


Amsterdam is welknown as Gaycity , and at "every" corner even schoolyards you can buy harddrugs.
But it doesnot mean that amsterdammers are gay or drugsaddicts .

Jakarta etc : First cafe/disco and ended with cafe/disco plus karaoke plus pijat ++ (brothel).
Send the FPI to close them if the police dont do their work.



sidia
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On 04-05-2006 12:33 Jesses wrote:
"I am not quite sure your friends represent the culture of 240 million Indonesians"

No, presumably not, mr. Londoh. But I think you are too much occupied with the "average" Indonesian in this matter and with THE Indonesian culture as a fixed set of norms and values, and with it should be like. It doent suit this topic.


Amsterdam is welknown as Gaycity , and at "every" corner even schoolyards you can buy harddrugs.
But it doesnot mean that amsterdammers are gay or drugsaddicts .

Jakarta etc : First cafe/disco and ended with cafe/disco plus karaoke plus pijat ++ (brothel).
Send the FPI to close them if the police dont do their work.



sidia
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On 04-05-2006 13:02 londoh wrote:


My "average" Indonesian will feel very insulted about so much rudeness that is full of intolerance and misunderstanding, if they will tell around the same ideas as they write about on this forum.


Yesss, very ge-insulteerd Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes!



sidia
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On 04-05-2006 13:02 londoh wrote:


My "average" Indonesian will feel very insulted about so much rudeness that is full of intolerance and misunderstanding, if they will tell around the same ideas as they write about on this forum.


Yesss, very ge-insulteerd Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes!



AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 15:21

S.lm.at s.mua yth.,

"With my personal remark on this issue, I am not intended to offend anybody ... but it struck me the outmost that some Islamist and also Christian believers have some weird ideas in 'their perception of females'.
  • To give an example:

    A while ago I had a discussion with an Arabian; he said that women, who smokes cigarettes are whores ( Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused ).
    Then I said to him: "So men who are smoking cigarettes are pimps ........" Emoticon: Devil

    I think that men who state these things, show others more about themselves than about woman ......... Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Devil





  • AnisJ
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    (Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 15:21

    S.lm.at s.mua yth.,

    "With my personal remark on this issue, I am not intended to offend anybody ... but it struck me the outmost that some Islamist and also Christian believers have some weird ideas in 'their perception of females'.
  • To give an example:

    A while ago I had a discussion with an Arabian; he said that women, who smokes cigarettes are whores ( Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused ).
    Then I said to him: "So men who are smoking cigarettes are pimps ........" Emoticon: Devil

    I think that men who state these things, show others more about themselves than about woman ......... Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Devil





  • Jesses
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    This perception is not restricted to men, Anis. Recently, in Yogya, I had a discussion with a girl about the prostitution in her neighbourhood. I asked her about the background of these girls. She than gave a general description of what prostitutes are like, and the next moment she applied this description to a friend of hers: "Yeah, they're like ***, she smokes too". She concluded by using a Javanese term which put both her friend and the prostitutes in one category Emoticon: Red face



    Jesses
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    This perception is not restricted to men, Anis. Recently, in Yogya, I had a discussion with a girl about the prostitution in her neighbourhood. I asked her about the background of these girls. She than gave a general description of what prostitutes are like, and the next moment she applied this description to a friend of hers: "Yeah, they're like ***, she smokes too". She concluded by using a Javanese term which put both her friend and the prostitutes in one category Emoticon: Red face



    Jesses
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    O, i'm really sorry...

    I already wondered why my reply had not been submitted, but this is page 2 already



    Jesses
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    O, i'm really sorry...

    I already wondered why my reply had not been submitted, but this is page 2 already



    AnisJ
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    (Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 15:57

    Login again and use the [edit] block at the date of your posting ......

    I only talk about 'smoking cigarettes', not other smoking .... , but like they say 'where there is smoke there is fire' .......



    AnisJ
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    (Edited) Posted @ 04 May 2006 15:57

    Login again and use the [edit] block at the date of your posting ......

    I only talk about 'smoking cigarettes', not other smoking .... , but like they say 'where there is smoke there is fire' .......



    Jeroen
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    On 04-05-2006 09:49 londoh wrote:
    Is this an opinion ? Or just remarks from someone who just woke up and did not drink his cafe yet Emoticon: Clown

    Opinion of course, that's what a forum is used for. And yes, I had my coffee by then.

    Ooh well, I'm sorry to see that some people use all kinds of laws to abuse them right away. Again, such abuse has nothing to do with islam, is't merely an excuse for something different, they don't like to obey (basic) laws in the first place and they want to push 'other people' into their way of life as well. Where did I hear those things before?



    Jeroen
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    On 04-05-2006 09:49 londoh wrote:
    Is this an opinion ? Or just remarks from someone who just woke up and did not drink his cafe yet Emoticon: Clown

    Opinion of course, that's what a forum is used for. And yes, I had my coffee by then.

    Ooh well, I'm sorry to see that some people use all kinds of laws to abuse them right away. Again, such abuse has nothing to do with islam, is't merely an excuse for something different, they don't like to obey (basic) laws in the first place and they want to push 'other people' into their way of life as well. Where did I hear those things before?



    stijn
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    THE POWER OF MAKE UP
    ISBN : 9792201939
    Pengarang : GUSNALDI
    Penerbit : Gramedia Pustaka Utama, PT.
    Penerbitan : 2003
    Bahasa : INDONESIA
    Sampul : Soft Cover
    Ukuran : 23 x 30 cm
    Berat : 1.10 kg
    Bonus : -
    Jumlah Halaman : 192 hal
    Stok : 4
    Harga : Rp 125.000,00

    http://www.kompas.com/tbgramed(...)detail.cfm?bid=40076



    stijn
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    THE POWER OF MAKE UP
    ISBN : 9792201939
    Pengarang : GUSNALDI
    Penerbit : Gramedia Pustaka Utama, PT.
    Penerbitan : 2003
    Bahasa : INDONESIA
    Sampul : Soft Cover
    Ukuran : 23 x 30 cm
    Berat : 1.10 kg
    Bonus : -
    Jumlah Halaman : 192 hal
    Stok : 4
    Harga : Rp 125.000,00

    http://www.kompas.com/tbgramed(...)detail.cfm?bid=40076



    Agung
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    (Edited) Posted @ 05 May 2006 12:47


    On 04-05-2006 12:54 Jesses wrote:
    We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control the dick (penis).
    This corresponds very well to my experience when I was in Egypt. Nearly, all men that I talked with came within 5 minutes to the subject " woman " The question that always came was: " "what is it like to be with an European woman in bed...." It was really amazing how many times this question came up. I've never experienced something like that in non-muslim countries.

    (By the way, I've also been to Turkey once, but overthere they also didn't ask this question, so it does not apply to all muslim countries.)



    Agung
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    (Edited) Posted @ 05 May 2006 12:47


    On 04-05-2006 12:54 Jesses wrote:
    We Muslim man cannot control our lust therefore the woman should cover themselve. We cannot control the dick (penis).
    This corresponds very well to my experience when I was in Egypt. Nearly, all men that I talked with came within 5 minutes to the subject " woman " The question that always came was: " "what is it like to be with an European woman in bed...." It was really amazing how many times this question came up. I've never experienced something like that in non-muslim countries.

    (By the way, I've also been to Turkey once, but overthere they also didn't ask this question, so it does not apply to all muslim countries.)



    AnisJ
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    (Edited) Posted @ 06 May 2006 13:04


    On 05-05-2006 12:47 Agung wrote:

    ...
    This corresponds very well to my experience when I was in Egypt. Nearly, all men that I talked with came within 5 minutes to the subject " woman " The question that always came was: " "what is it like to be with an European woman in bed...." It was really amazing how many times this question came up. Ive never experienced something like that in non-muslim countries.

    (By the way, Ive also been to Turkey once, but overthere they also didnt ask this question, so it does not apply to all muslim countries.)


    Mas, ...... if you are interested on this subject read the book of Frantz Fanon; it is translated from the French language, it was 'popular literature' of the Black Panters in America in the late '60-'70's the title is in Dutch: "Zwarte huid, blanke maskers'.
    In this book he described the psychology of colonilized people towards their former colonial rulers ...... for instance as an example why is there an expression (in Dutch only ?) 'pure innocensense white as a lily' {why white ?}.
    Frantz Fanon has worked as a psychologist for the freedom fighters of Algeria, in their fight for independence.
    "Why is white always linked to intelligence/civilisation/superiosm of race .... etc."
    Also on:

    newsfromrussia.com/culture/2005/09/29/63994.html



    AnisJ
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    (Edited) Posted @ 06 May 2006 13:04


    On 05-05-2006 12:47 Agung wrote:

    ...
    This corresponds very well to my experience when I was in Egypt. Nearly, all men that I talked with came within 5 minutes to the subject " woman " The question that always came was: " "what is it like to be with an European woman in bed...." It was really amazing how many times this question came up. Ive never experienced something like that in non-muslim countries.

    (By the way, Ive also been to Turkey once, but overthere they also didnt ask this question, so it does not apply to all muslim countries.)


    Mas, ...... if you are interested on this subject read the book of Frantz Fanon; it is translated from the French language, it was 'popular literature' of the Black Panters in America in the late '60-'70's the title is in Dutch: "Zwarte huid, blanke maskers'.
    In this book he described the psychology of colonilized people towards their former colonial rulers ...... for instance as an example why is there an expression (in Dutch only ?) 'pure innocensense white as a lily' {why white ?}.
    Frantz Fanon has worked as a psychologist for the freedom fighters of Algeria, in their fight for independence.
    "Why is white always linked to intelligence/civilisation/superiosm of race .... etc."
    Also on:

    newsfromrussia.com/culture/2005/09/29/63994.html



    Jesses
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    This morning in the Jakarta Post...

    Woman takes Tangerang mayor to court over prostitution bylaw

    Tangerang - Lilies Lindawati is keeping to a pledge to settle the score with those who publicly humiliated her by branding her a prostitute.

    The 34-year-old pregnant wife of an elementary school teacher, who was arrested on the street by public order officers enforcing a prostitution bylaw, has filed suit against Tangerang Mayor Wahidin Halim at Tangerang District Court. (JP, 9-5-06).

    This is the same Lilies Lindawati this topic started with.

    (She's demanding Rp 500 million (about US$53,000) compensation from the mayor for material and other losses. As a primary school teacher, her husband's monthly income is probably only 0,3 - 0,4% of this amount Emoticon: Yes! )



    Jesses
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    This morning in the Jakarta Post...

    Woman takes Tangerang mayor to court over prostitution bylaw

    Tangerang - Lilies Lindawati is keeping to a pledge to settle the score with those who publicly humiliated her by branding her a prostitute.

    The 34-year-old pregnant wife of an elementary school teacher, who was arrested on the street by public order officers enforcing a prostitution bylaw, has filed suit against Tangerang Mayor Wahidin Halim at Tangerang District Court. (JP, 9-5-06).

    This is the same Lilies Lindawati this topic started with.

    (She's demanding Rp 500 million (about US$53,000) compensation from the mayor for material and other losses. As a primary school teacher, her husband's monthly income is probably only 0,3 - 0,4% of this amount Emoticon: Yes! )



    Jantje
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    On 09-05-2006 09:02 Jesses wrote:
    This morning in the Jakarta Post...

    Woman takes Tangerang mayor to court over prostitution bylaw

    Hi Jesses,

    Don't know if she 'll stand a chance but she has the guts. I hope she succeeds. Good publicity and I'm curious for the outcome. Emoticon: Yes!



    Jantje
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    On 09-05-2006 09:02 Jesses wrote:
    This morning in the Jakarta Post...

    Woman takes Tangerang mayor to court over prostitution bylaw

    Hi Jesses,

    Don't know if she 'll stand a chance but she has the guts. I hope she succeeds. Good publicity and I'm curious for the outcome. Emoticon: Yes!



    belgianguy
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    yeah thumbs up for her
    she was wrongfully arrested... spend 3 days in jail... a fake trial without access to a lawyer... shows how the indonesian legal system works (for those without money and connections anyways)




    belgianguy
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    yeah thumbs up for her
    she was wrongfully arrested... spend 3 days in jail... a fake trial without access to a lawyer... shows how the indonesian legal system works (for those without money and connections anyways)




    Jesses
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    On 09-05-2006 10:24 Jantje wrote:

    ...

    Im curious for the outcome. Emoticon: Yes!


    Yes, me too. Whatever the outcome will be, it'll give rise to a lot of mayhem, I guess. If the judge puts her in the right, it will motivate other people to fight their conviction, too. Moreover, the judge will publicly throw doubt upon the bylaws and the means of their enforcement.
    It the judge does not put her in her right... yeah, I don't know. It could give rise to a lot of tension among common people, I think.



    Jesses
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    On 09-05-2006 10:24 Jantje wrote:

    ...

    Im curious for the outcome. Emoticon: Yes!


    Yes, me too. Whatever the outcome will be, it'll give rise to a lot of mayhem, I guess. If the judge puts her in the right, it will motivate other people to fight their conviction, too. Moreover, the judge will publicly throw doubt upon the bylaws and the means of their enforcement.
    It the judge does not put her in her right... yeah, I don't know. It could give rise to a lot of tension among common people, I think.



    belgianguy
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    whether she wins or loses the case...at least there is the publicity and the attention on that bylaw...it will (hopefully) make other regions think twice before going down that same path
    it's just that the husband (who is an elementary school teacher) will have to watch out for his job, not now during all the publicity but later after the dust settles, it will be for some unrelated trivial matter but the bureaucracy tends to take revenge some way or another



    belgianguy
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    whether she wins or loses the case...at least there is the publicity and the attention on that bylaw...it will (hopefully) make other regions think twice before going down that same path
    it's just that the husband (who is an elementary school teacher) will have to watch out for his job, not now during all the publicity but later after the dust settles, it will be for some unrelated trivial matter but the bureaucracy tends to take revenge some way or another



    Agung
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    Attention and publicity will help Indonesian people to be forced to think about the bylaw issue.

    I think this is the only way to stop the propagation of these evil laws.



    Agung
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    Attention and publicity will help Indonesian people to be forced to think about the bylaw issue.

    I think this is the only way to stop the propagation of these evil laws.



    Jantje
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    spacer line
     

    If she only had a website / blog. to draw attention and support her case worldwide and highlight s this rediculous, dangerous development. Emoticon: Yeah right!



    Jantje
    User
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    If she only had a website / blog. to draw attention and support her case worldwide and highlight s this rediculous, dangerous development. Emoticon: Yeah right!



    kinanti pinta
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    jantje, your avatar is still braless... Emoticon: Laugh out loud



    kinanti pinta
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    jantje, your avatar is still braless... Emoticon: Laugh out loud



    Jantje
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    Jantje
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    Agung
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    Agung
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    londoh
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    londoh
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    pretbek
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    pretbek
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    kiwimave
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    (Edited) Posted @ 12 May 2006 17:55

    Just for people who don't believe Arab's are the biggest perverts of this world follow this link (site of Google Trends: investigates worldwide internet behaviour)

    http://www.google.com/trends?q(...)b=2&date=all&geo=all

    It means Arabic speaking people are number one looking for "gay sex" on the internet!!

    So everyone who thinks Arab people are so nice and friendly: we know better now!





    kiwimave
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    (Edited) Posted @ 12 May 2006 17:55

    Just for people who don't believe Arab's are the biggest perverts of this world follow this link (site of Google Trends: investigates worldwide internet behaviour)

    http://www.google.com/trends?q(...)b=2&date=all&geo=all

    It means Arabic speaking people are number one looking for "gay sex" on the internet!!

    So everyone who thinks Arab people are so nice and friendly: we know better now!





    pretbek
    User
    spacer line
     

    So people looking for gay sex are not nice & friendly? Yeah, I'm sure they're mean devils with big spots on their noses who like killing also!



    pretbek
    User
    spacer line
     

    So people looking for gay sex are not nice & friendly? Yeah, I'm sure they're mean devils with big spots on their noses who like killing also!



    Jesses
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    (Edited) Posted @ 13 May 2006 07:50

    Hi Kimiwave,

    The statistics do not really surprise me, but I don't think Arabs are greater perverts than you and me. As you know, homosexuality is not really accepted in Arab countries. How do Arab gays have to look for peers, then? Or find out that they are not as strange and "dirty" as their environment think they are? Yes, through the internet.




    Jesses
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    (Edited) Posted @ 13 May 2006 07:50

    Hi Kimiwave,

    The statistics do not really surprise me, but I don't think Arabs are greater perverts than you and me. As you know, homosexuality is not really accepted in Arab countries. How do Arab gays have to look for peers, then? Or find out that they are not as strange and "dirty" as their environment think they are? Yes, through the internet.




    Erik_
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    (Edited) Posted @ 24 May 2006 12:58





    Erik_
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    (Edited) Posted @ 24 May 2006 12:58





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