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  Three Christian schoolgirls beheaded in C. Sulawesi JAKARTA - Three Christian teenage girls were beheaded Saturday in the latest attack against non-Muslims in the troubled Indonesian province of Central Sulawesi, police said. The three high school students were found with their heads severed early Saturday in the sectarian-divided town of Poso, said provincial police spokesman Rais Adam. The girls were believed to have been murdered while they were walking to school, Adam said.

He said two of the victims' heads were found near a police post while the third was discovered outside a local Christian church in Poso. "We are still waiting for results from investigation in the field. We are still trying to determine whether this case is religiously-motivated or not," he told AFP. A policewoman on duty in Poso confirmed to AFP that the triple murder had taken place and that the killings were being investigated.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, but Central Sulawesi has a roughly equal number of Muslims and Christians. The province was the scene of a bloody sectarian war in 2001-2002 that killed around 1,000 people from both communities. A government-mediated truce succeeded in ending the conflict in early 2002, but there have since been a series of bomb attacks and assassinations of Christians. These included a blast at a market in Poso, a predominantly Christian town, that killed 22 people in May.

Christian leaders have repeatedly accused the authorities in Jakarta of not doing enough to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.


Link to related event Related event:
Central Sulawesi conflict

Related blog entries (category 'C. Sulawesi conflict') Related blog entries (category 'C. Sulawesi conflict'):
27 October 2005 · 20 arrested in raid on sect in Palu
26 October 2005 · Four dead in police clash with sect in Sulawesi
18 September 2005 · Blast rocks troubled Sulawesi province
02 June 2005 · More suspects held over Tentena bombings
28 May 2005 · Volunteers say Tentena explosions kill 27


Posted in C. Sulawesi conflict @ 29 October 2005 11:37 CET by Jeroen · 'Blog' RSS feed · permalink





kiwimave
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Absolutely horrible. Why is it so difficult for certain Islamic groups to respect and tolerate people with other beliefs and another way of life? What can the world do to prevent Indonesia becoming another Afghanistan or Saoudi Arabia in the future?



kiwimave
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Absolutely horrible. Why is it so difficult for certain Islamic groups to respect and tolerate people with other beliefs and another way of life? What can the world do to prevent Indonesia becoming another Afghanistan or Saoudi Arabia in the future?



sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 29 October 2005 13:05

bloody barbaric bastards. i wished they would realize or being made realize how wrong they did, and then live with the guilt of taking 3 human lifes.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.



sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 29 October 2005 13:05

bloody barbaric bastards. i wished they would realize or being made realize how wrong they did, and then live with the guilt of taking 3 human lifes.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.



sidia
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Kiwimave :

Yes it is horrible .
Apparently you have some Inside Information ??.
Because without evidence you are blaming a certain Islamic group.
Do have read carrefully ?? .
Because the problems in POSO is basicly the so called SARA .
(Suku Agama ,Ras) .
It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidents.





sidia
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Kiwimave :

Yes it is horrible .
Apparently you have some Inside Information ??.
Because without evidence you are blaming a certain Islamic group.
Do have read carrefully ?? .
Because the problems in POSO is basicly the so called SARA .
(Suku Agama ,Ras) .
It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidents.





sidia
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On 29-10-2005 13:05 sascha wrote:
bloody barbaric bastards.

Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.


My dear Sascha :
1. True , its B3 = bloody, barbaric, bastards.

2. Now you are shouting .
You look like to me as a bloody foreigner ,only shouting and blaming people in indonesia.





sidia
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On 29-10-2005 13:05 sascha wrote:
bloody barbaric bastards.

Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.


My dear Sascha :
1. True , its B3 = bloody, barbaric, bastards.

2. Now you are shouting .
You look like to me as a bloody foreigner ,only shouting and blaming people in indonesia.





sascha
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sure u can call me a bloody foreigner. i dont care.
who else should i blame, the last time somebody was beheaded for stupid religion in germany was some 60 years ago.
to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized.
u dont want foreigners to critisize indonesia?! then u also better dont want foreign investments in indonesia. pull urself out of the dirt with ur proud nation. Emoticon: Devil



sascha
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sure u can call me a bloody foreigner. i dont care.
who else should i blame, the last time somebody was beheaded for stupid religion in germany was some 60 years ago.
to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized.
u dont want foreigners to critisize indonesia?! then u also better dont want foreign investments in indonesia. pull urself out of the dirt with ur proud nation. Emoticon: Devil



sidia
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Sascha :
The "ART "of discussion is to read carefully the messages , and give an opnion with points and if possible with watertight arguments.
Not only shouting.

Yr First point is O.K.
But yr Second Point is rubbish. (worst is NOBODY ---------- etc ) What are you talking about ??.Excuse me .

About yr comment : to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized :
So what , I dont care if you are shouting AGAIN , because without pointing to
an universal criteria it is only a personal opinion of Mr Sascha.
And you are AGAIN blaming people .

Abt : foreign investment , that is the choise of the tradepartners.

In my opinion you must read the News carrefully .
I think there are 4 components in the news.
1. 3 girls beheaded.
2. the investigation is not yet ready.
3. the trouble (killing ) is from both side (It is horrible fact)
4. the Chr. leaders are blaming Jakarta (the Govt).

At this point of discussion you can only give a comment abt. point 1 and maybe point 4 .
But you are beginning with shouting.

Abt yr last comment : to put meself out the dirt ---.
That is yr opinion, (to me from a bloodyforeigner).





sidia
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Sascha :
The "ART "of discussion is to read carefully the messages , and give an opnion with points and if possible with watertight arguments.
Not only shouting.

Yr First point is O.K.
But yr Second Point is rubbish. (worst is NOBODY ---------- etc ) What are you talking about ??.Excuse me .

About yr comment : to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized :
So what , I dont care if you are shouting AGAIN , because without pointing to
an universal criteria it is only a personal opinion of Mr Sascha.
And you are AGAIN blaming people .

Abt : foreign investment , that is the choise of the tradepartners.

In my opinion you must read the News carrefully .
I think there are 4 components in the news.
1. 3 girls beheaded.
2. the investigation is not yet ready.
3. the trouble (killing ) is from both side (It is horrible fact)
4. the Chr. leaders are blaming Jakarta (the Govt).

At this point of discussion you can only give a comment abt. point 1 and maybe point 4 .
But you are beginning with shouting.

Abt yr last comment : to put meself out the dirt ---.
That is yr opinion, (to me from a bloodyforeigner).





sascha
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society

btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.

p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm Emoticon: Devil



sascha
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society

btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.

p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm Emoticon: Devil



aponto
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sascha
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society

btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.

p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm

......................................................................................................................................
I think you are in a certain state of mind ,when you send msgges.
People like you ,use internet to start a career as a comedian.
Sukses and amuse your audience Emoticon: Yeah right!



aponto
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sascha
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society

btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.

p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm

......................................................................................................................................
I think you are in a certain state of mind ,when you send msgges.
People like you ,use internet to start a career as a comedian.
Sukses and amuse your audience Emoticon: Yeah right!



putri
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Hi Sidia,

You don't have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said. I think in some of the points could be a bit true. Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners. Anyway, in this time, Indonesia should change. Change its perspective, and change the way of looking on some subjects, just like above matter. Should the law and authority begin to take it seriously, to give a sign to those people with strange ideas, and trouble makers, that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again. So if there is a very hard effort from authority to find out and seriously handling this matter ( involving those priesters and ulama's together, telling them, basically they are talking about the same thing : religion , telling people doing "good" things..) it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit) We cannot close our eyes, that underground activities is going on in Indonesia trying to ruin the whole nation.SARA is only a very vertile ground to start the mess. But, who we are, it's quite difficult to tell those high positions guys, they are too arrogant to listen..and I think this topic is quite difficult ..too difficult for somebody who doesn;t understand politics like me. hmm.. very sad message though, 3 innocent young girls' life has been wasted.



putri
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Hi Sidia,

You don't have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said. I think in some of the points could be a bit true. Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners. Anyway, in this time, Indonesia should change. Change its perspective, and change the way of looking on some subjects, just like above matter. Should the law and authority begin to take it seriously, to give a sign to those people with strange ideas, and trouble makers, that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again. So if there is a very hard effort from authority to find out and seriously handling this matter ( involving those priesters and ulama's together, telling them, basically they are talking about the same thing : religion , telling people doing "good" things..) it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit) We cannot close our eyes, that underground activities is going on in Indonesia trying to ruin the whole nation.SARA is only a very vertile ground to start the mess. But, who we are, it's quite difficult to tell those high positions guys, they are too arrogant to listen..and I think this topic is quite difficult ..too difficult for somebody who doesn;t understand politics like me. hmm.. very sad message though, 3 innocent young girls' life has been wasted.



putri
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Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody. Remember when they have heads run around on a motorcycle ? it was few years ago, but the Dayaks doesn;t looks very primitive on their motorcycles.
And I saw people enjoying this pictures on the newspaper, some thinks it was funny . (What about if children staring at those pictures?)



putri
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Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody. Remember when they have heads run around on a motorcycle ? it was few years ago, but the Dayaks doesn;t looks very primitive on their motorcycles.
And I saw people enjoying this pictures on the newspaper, some thinks it was funny . (What about if children staring at those pictures?)



sidia
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On 29-10-2005 23:06 putri wrote:


You dont have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said.

I think in some of the points could be a bit true.

Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners.

that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again.

it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit)


a. I am not , but it is ridiculous if a stranger, a foreigner talking about something without any knowledge or background information.
(In dutch = Spuit Elf)

b. only his 1st point., see my comment.
2nd point is rubbish.

c. I dont agree that orang kita ? (who is the orang kita) will see it as an entertainment , barbaric murder is barbaric and also a traumatic experience.

d. agree (see also indonesian nw papers)
e. agree





sidia
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On 29-10-2005 23:06 putri wrote:


You dont have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said.

I think in some of the points could be a bit true.

Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners.

that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again.

it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit)


a. I am not , but it is ridiculous if a stranger, a foreigner talking about something without any knowledge or background information.
(In dutch = Spuit Elf)

b. only his 1st point., see my comment.
2nd point is rubbish.

c. I dont agree that orang kita ? (who is the orang kita) will see it as an entertainment , barbaric murder is barbaric and also a traumatic experience.

d. agree (see also indonesian nw papers)
e. agree





sidia
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On 29-10-2005 23:17 putri wrote:
Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody.


We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .

About the problems between the Dayaks and Madurese in Kalimantan you can or must see it as a conflict of interest , and as everyone know in the past the dayaks are headhunters . Maybe it is a part of their "culture" ? .



sidia
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On 29-10-2005 23:17 putri wrote:
Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody.


We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .

About the problems between the Dayaks and Madurese in Kalimantan you can or must see it as a conflict of interest , and as everyone know in the past the dayaks are headhunters . Maybe it is a part of their "culture" ? .



sglange
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Emoticon: Bye bye Sascha & Sidia;
Please be calm on this issue. As for me, I do not blame either the Christians or the Muslims for what has happened. The reason is that if the Police has been doing their jobs properly these things would not have happened in the first place. Also the politicians in the local arean should be blamed and not the police alone.



sglange
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Emoticon: Bye bye Sascha & Sidia;
Please be calm on this issue. As for me, I do not blame either the Christians or the Muslims for what has happened. The reason is that if the Police has been doing their jobs properly these things would not have happened in the first place. Also the politicians in the local arean should be blamed and not the police alone.



sidia
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sgllange :
thanks for yr neutral mssg,

I am still calm, only giving comment to someone .
It is strange that someone can give such opinion within 1,5 hour (very clever) and begin to shout, blaming and insulting people.
Quote : 1. worst is nobody-----
2. to me indonesia looks pr. damn uncivilized
3. I blame indonesian society.
That is not a good start for a discussion .

I think people must realized to be carrefully if they will discuss about a (very) sensitive problems.
A forum is not a carte blanche for insulting people.
Maybe he must learned about the "Art" of discussion.



sidia
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sgllange :
thanks for yr neutral mssg,

I am still calm, only giving comment to someone .
It is strange that someone can give such opinion within 1,5 hour (very clever) and begin to shout, blaming and insulting people.
Quote : 1. worst is nobody-----
2. to me indonesia looks pr. damn uncivilized
3. I blame indonesian society.
That is not a good start for a discussion .

I think people must realized to be carrefully if they will discuss about a (very) sensitive problems.
A forum is not a carte blanche for insulting people.
Maybe he must learned about the "Art" of discussion.



Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 00:36 sidia wrote:

...


We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .


Nonsense. This has nothing to do with foreigners. My wife from Kalimantan is still everyday more astonished then me with the local habits in Yogyakarta. The same with my friends from Sumatra. One friend from Bukittinggi once said to me that he has more in common with a German then with a Javanese. My ex-wife as Moluccan fled away from Java because she couldn't stand the local culture anymore. She felt like a stranger in her own country.
My Javanese friend from Holland who comes every 3 months to Jakarta and Yogyakarta is reluctant to go back to Holland cause he's completely alienated from his fellow-Indonesians and get headaches of them.
Then we're not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who don't feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasn't that the problem in Aceh either?!
It's nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas. I can see it in my own relationship; because I am living much longer in Jawa then my wife, I am able to understand them a little bit more then my Indonesian wife who is from another island.

This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.



Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 00:36 sidia wrote:

...


We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .


Nonsense. This has nothing to do with foreigners. My wife from Kalimantan is still everyday more astonished then me with the local habits in Yogyakarta. The same with my friends from Sumatra. One friend from Bukittinggi once said to me that he has more in common with a German then with a Javanese. My ex-wife as Moluccan fled away from Java because she couldn't stand the local culture anymore. She felt like a stranger in her own country.
My Javanese friend from Holland who comes every 3 months to Jakarta and Yogyakarta is reluctant to go back to Holland cause he's completely alienated from his fellow-Indonesians and get headaches of them.
Then we're not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who don't feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasn't that the problem in Aceh either?!
It's nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas. I can see it in my own relationship; because I am living much longer in Jawa then my wife, I am able to understand them a little bit more then my Indonesian wife who is from another island.

This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.



sidia
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


Nonsense.

Its nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas.

This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.


Y-B.
Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.

But that is an universal feeling of a migrant (pendatang).
For example in Holland , (for the dutchies) , a Tukker or Groninger , Fries have also the right to settled in / around the big cities.
But they are "still" people from outside. At least the first generation.
They dont think , talk , act like people from amsterdam or rotterdam.
But it is normal a situation , every migrant must integrated with the people in the new place .

Like Siapa : more than 25 yrs living in holland in several big cities (not Loetjebroek) , talk , think , some times act as a blandees (very confusing to him = pusing also ).
But he is still a foreigner(bukan pasport merah) , feel as foreigner .
And very happy to live among the friendly and tolerant people of holland.

F.E. Putri is coming from Surabaya (?) , a Javanese .
I am coming from Jakarta (Sundanese) , We have not the same background but if she talk about "orang kita ", BUT I can understand her.





sidia
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


Nonsense.

Its nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas.

This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.


Y-B.
Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.

But that is an universal feeling of a migrant (pendatang).
For example in Holland , (for the dutchies) , a Tukker or Groninger , Fries have also the right to settled in / around the big cities.
But they are "still" people from outside. At least the first generation.
They dont think , talk , act like people from amsterdam or rotterdam.
But it is normal a situation , every migrant must integrated with the people in the new place .

Like Siapa : more than 25 yrs living in holland in several big cities (not Loetjebroek) , talk , think , some times act as a blandees (very confusing to him = pusing also ).
But he is still a foreigner(bukan pasport merah) , feel as foreigner .
And very happy to live among the friendly and tolerant people of holland.

F.E. Putri is coming from Surabaya (?) , a Javanese .
I am coming from Jakarta (Sundanese) , We have not the same background but if she talk about "orang kita ", BUT I can understand her.





Jantje
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(Edited) Posted @ 30 October 2005 10:29





Jantje
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(Edited) Posted @ 30 October 2005 10:29





Fotograaf
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While reading the different reactions here on this forum, one thing came to my mind: This is exactly the provocators are aiming for, trying to divide the people.. Emoticon: Stupid



Fotograaf
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While reading the different reactions here on this forum, one thing came to my mind: This is exactly the provocators are aiming for, trying to divide the people.. Emoticon: Stupid



sidia
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sidia
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sascha
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Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia. Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there. Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Wink
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Shiny )
I know about the dayak headhunter history still it doesnt make it culture to me - its uncivilized!
By the way there is no way to have discussion with u, we can have debate but thats all as ur position is set in stone.



sascha
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Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia. Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there. Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Wink
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Shiny )
I know about the dayak headhunter history still it doesnt make it culture to me - its uncivilized!
By the way there is no way to have discussion with u, we can have debate but thats all as ur position is set in stone.



papaya
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I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated



papaya
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I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated



sidia
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On 30-10-2005 11:00 sascha wrote:


Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia.

Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there. Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Wink

Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Shiny )


Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.

1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.

2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?





sidia
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On 30-10-2005 11:00 sascha wrote:


Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia.

Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there. Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Wink

Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Shiny )


Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.

1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.

2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?





sidia
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...



Then were not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who dont feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasnt that the problem in Aceh either?!


I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.

Abt : Aceh : is beginning because they will established the Darul Islam
Since the time of Daud Beureuh.(50 yrs ago ?)
(The Govt : have also problems with D.I. (kartosuwirjo). in west java)
Nothing problems with acc. you the javanese colonizers.

abt Irian : you could be right.



sidia
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...



Then were not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who dont feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasnt that the problem in Aceh either?!


I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.

Abt : Aceh : is beginning because they will established the Darul Islam
Since the time of Daud Beureuh.(50 yrs ago ?)
(The Govt : have also problems with D.I. (kartosuwirjo). in west java)
Nothing problems with acc. you the javanese colonizers.

abt Irian : you could be right.



Fotograaf
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated


Papaya can you pls explain to me why you are thinking that those murderers are reading this forum?
You are reacting exactly the way those culprits are hoping for, pointing your finger to all (Muslem) Indonesians. Widening the gap this way.





Fotograaf
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated


Papaya can you pls explain to me why you are thinking that those murderers are reading this forum?
You are reacting exactly the way those culprits are hoping for, pointing your finger to all (Muslem) Indonesians. Widening the gap this way.





sidia
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Friends :
I have read the news: Govt boost security after girls beheaded (placed almost 4 hours ago) .
And no one have give a quick reply.(minutes ago)

Because in this topic within 1,5 hour there are already some judgement , and some discussion between users.
I am wondering what the reason of it . ??



sidia
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Friends :
I have read the news: Govt boost security after girls beheaded (placed almost 4 hours ago) .
And no one have give a quick reply.(minutes ago)

Because in this topic within 1,5 hour there are already some judgement , and some discussion between users.
I am wondering what the reason of it . ??



sascha
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On 30-10-2005 11:29 sidia wrote:

...


Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.

1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.

2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?


sidia thats exactly the point u also dont have any knowledge about others or my background, so dont call other people touris or question their knowledge about indonesia OK!!!!
And if other people say something just try to give it a thought once(not about my comments but take putri for example)
u ask for points?? what for?? u will simply ignore them(like what i brought up a lot of young indonesians find cruel stuff enterntaining)
U get personal all the time so dont cry now. I just gave u ur own medicine(bit exaggerated so)



sascha
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On 30-10-2005 11:29 sidia wrote:

...


Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.

1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.

2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?


sidia thats exactly the point u also dont have any knowledge about others or my background, so dont call other people touris or question their knowledge about indonesia OK!!!!
And if other people say something just try to give it a thought once(not about my comments but take putri for example)
u ask for points?? what for?? u will simply ignore them(like what i brought up a lot of young indonesians find cruel stuff enterntaining)
U get personal all the time so dont cry now. I just gave u ur own medicine(bit exaggerated so)



aponto
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Sidia yth,
As you probably know from experience ,certain topics might be a reason for some visitors to start an agressive discussion.
There is nothing you can do about it.It reminds me of 1999 and brings me this situation into perspective.
I had invited some of the regulars to see me for a coffee visit,when the person
was around the place where we live in Indonesia.We have met him(coincidental)somewhere else .To be short:during our conversation he found that contempting and offending was basically allowed.
But I had also noticed a very remarkable thing.During our conversation
his views on issues in Indonesia were very different compared to his virtual contributions on many forums.
I know,it is not easy to ignore those persons and msgges.but I thinks it is the only medicine.
Aponto



aponto
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Sidia yth,
As you probably know from experience ,certain topics might be a reason for some visitors to start an agressive discussion.
There is nothing you can do about it.It reminds me of 1999 and brings me this situation into perspective.
I had invited some of the regulars to see me for a coffee visit,when the person
was around the place where we live in Indonesia.We have met him(coincidental)somewhere else .To be short:during our conversation he found that contempting and offending was basically allowed.
But I had also noticed a very remarkable thing.During our conversation
his views on issues in Indonesia were very different compared to his virtual contributions on many forums.
I know,it is not easy to ignore those persons and msgges.but I thinks it is the only medicine.
Aponto



Yogya-Bali
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Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.


I didn't say all of them have a bad experience but it is obvious for them that you can not talk about Indonesians because of the big differences between the several regions. And this is logical cause that's everywhere in the world with islanders. And if you imagine that Indonesia is as big as Europe... Also an Italian is quite different from a Norwegian. Although Europe is not one country, it is still understandable that you can hardly speak about Indonesians who can understand each other, knowing the rules, etc.



Yogya-Bali
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Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.


I didn't say all of them have a bad experience but it is obvious for them that you can not talk about Indonesians because of the big differences between the several regions. And this is logical cause that's everywhere in the world with islanders. And if you imagine that Indonesia is as big as Europe... Also an Italian is quite different from a Norwegian. Although Europe is not one country, it is still understandable that you can hardly speak about Indonesians who can understand each other, knowing the rules, etc.



Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 12:09 sidia wrote:
I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.


About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race. And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities. Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation. Even talk with Bugis or Makasarese. Why you think they were so proud about Habibie becoming president and now Jusuf Kalla as vice-president. They don't like the Javanese hegemony of their island (not the number of Javanes migrants but the cultural colonization of Java; like the McDonald-zation of the world)); just because they don't understand their culture, their habits, the way of thinking.
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I would like to happen, is that Indonesia will be split like Yugoslavia. But that means that people (especially in Jakarta) have te realize how the other ethnic groups are feeling and thinking and not by putting the culture of the majority on a minority. Then you never will create a feeling of nationalism.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didn't want to celebrate Independence day? On TV they showed us how the Balinese were celebrating 17-8 on the beach of Kuta. At that same moment I was on the beach of Kuta and it was a complete set-up.
It is a certain sign, isn't it? And probably you can not blame the Balinese cause they suffered a lot the last years because of problems which were created by fellow-Indonesians from outside. The only reason that they react not in an anarchic way is because they realize very well that they are 100% depending on Jawa for their electricity.



Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 12:09 sidia wrote:
I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.


About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race. And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities. Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation. Even talk with Bugis or Makasarese. Why you think they were so proud about Habibie becoming president and now Jusuf Kalla as vice-president. They don't like the Javanese hegemony of their island (not the number of Javanes migrants but the cultural colonization of Java; like the McDonald-zation of the world)); just because they don't understand their culture, their habits, the way of thinking.
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I would like to happen, is that Indonesia will be split like Yugoslavia. But that means that people (especially in Jakarta) have te realize how the other ethnic groups are feeling and thinking and not by putting the culture of the majority on a minority. Then you never will create a feeling of nationalism.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didn't want to celebrate Independence day? On TV they showed us how the Balinese were celebrating 17-8 on the beach of Kuta. At that same moment I was on the beach of Kuta and it was a complete set-up.
It is a certain sign, isn't it? And probably you can not blame the Balinese cause they suffered a lot the last years because of problems which were created by fellow-Indonesians from outside. The only reason that they react not in an anarchic way is because they realize very well that they are 100% depending on Jawa for their electricity.



sidia
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Sascha :
In the 1st place an opinion with argument are important t me , not the background of someone.
But it could help to understand the reason/ arguments.
Frankly I dont know if you living in germany,but even so , you can have an opinion abt some theme.(in this case , this topic).
I am agree with the 1st one , but not agree abt the 2nd one.
Maybe it is to hard to say Rubbish , but that is my opinion, and with argument.
(premature judgement : Worst nobody ----29-10-2005 13.05)
In the same time you can read in several internet site (indonesian /dutch) that the Govt/ Pres. give orders to investigate the problem......

Abt Putri : I am mostly agree with her .
(read my mssg 30-10-2005 00.08)
Even I am saying : we can understand each others etc .
Y-B have another opinion, that is his right.

Being Personal : You are saying abt Mr Indonesia, my age etc ,= > Not pointing to my points. Are you Agree, Not Agree , and the reason/argument.

Abt : background : that is the answer reg . being personal.
You dont know me , but it is not a big problem , you schould only judging/giving comment regarding my opinion.

I know something(Not Much) about the Indonesian Culture , the people , how they live , relationship between Sundanese ,Jakartans? , Javanese , bataks, ambonese, balinese ,banten , minangkabaus ,menadonese ; chinese etc etc because I have relatives(family in law) and very very good friends.
And half of my live living in Indonesia ,born, go to school .
(the other half is in Holland).
And every 2 yrs in the past , and the last 5 yrs , every year playing tourist in indonesia.






sidia
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Sascha :
In the 1st place an opinion with argument are important t me , not the background of someone.
But it could help to understand the reason/ arguments.
Frankly I dont know if you living in germany,but even so , you can have an opinion abt some theme.(in this case , this topic).
I am agree with the 1st one , but not agree abt the 2nd one.
Maybe it is to hard to say Rubbish , but that is my opinion, and with argument.
(premature judgement : Worst nobody ----29-10-2005 13.05)
In the same time you can read in several internet site (indonesian /dutch) that the Govt/ Pres. give orders to investigate the problem......

Abt Putri : I am mostly agree with her .
(read my mssg 30-10-2005 00.08)
Even I am saying : we can understand each others etc .
Y-B have another opinion, that is his right.

Being Personal : You are saying abt Mr Indonesia, my age etc ,= > Not pointing to my points. Are you Agree, Not Agree , and the reason/argument.

Abt : background : that is the answer reg . being personal.
You dont know me , but it is not a big problem , you schould only judging/giving comment regarding my opinion.

I know something(Not Much) about the Indonesian Culture , the people , how they live , relationship between Sundanese ,Jakartans? , Javanese , bataks, ambonese, balinese ,banten , minangkabaus ,menadonese ; chinese etc etc because I have relatives(family in law) and very very good friends.
And half of my live living in Indonesia ,born, go to school .
(the other half is in Holland).
And every 2 yrs in the past , and the last 5 yrs , every year playing tourist in indonesia.






sidia
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On 30-10-2005 15:15 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.

For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race.
And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities.

Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation.

Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didnt want to celebrate Independence day?

Y-B : That is why I say It is difficult to explain the sociale structure/ the problems of indonesia to foreigners or a tourist ( 4 of 5 times roundtrip between medan and Mataram , sometimes to sulawesi).

Abt the differences between east indonesia and west indonesia is a fact , another suku , adat etc etc.
But they have make an appointment in the past : NKRI.
As you know amsterdam is not only white nowadays , we have more than 100
etnicgroups.(rotterdam ? , the hague ? )
But we are Amsterdammers , we must living with others in peace .
And try to be a good Nederlander or at least medelanders.
Talking abt. politics : true it is (very) sensitive , but among friends we can always talk freely.
And most of my friends (generation) are always saying We are One .
Abt : Indep.Days celeberation : IF true , it is very sad.
Not for Indonesia only but also for the people there.






sidia
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On 30-10-2005 15:15 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.

For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race.
And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities.

Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation.

Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didnt want to celebrate Independence day?

Y-B : That is why I say It is difficult to explain the sociale structure/ the problems of indonesia to foreigners or a tourist ( 4 of 5 times roundtrip between medan and Mataram , sometimes to sulawesi).

Abt the differences between east indonesia and west indonesia is a fact , another suku , adat etc etc.
But they have make an appointment in the past : NKRI.
As you know amsterdam is not only white nowadays , we have more than 100
etnicgroups.(rotterdam ? , the hague ? )
But we are Amsterdammers , we must living with others in peace .
And try to be a good Nederlander or at least medelanders.
Talking abt. politics : true it is (very) sensitive , but among friends we can always talk freely.
And most of my friends (generation) are always saying We are One .
Abt : Indep.Days celeberation : IF true , it is very sad.
Not for Indonesia only but also for the people there.






searching
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Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.

What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted God's Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"

ISN'T IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?

Haven't I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?

And don't ever dare blaming all the Indonesian Society. Don't YOU ever dare. There are a lot of good people in Indonesian society. And to blame others like Christians, HIndus, etc will not whitewash all you have done wrong.

Why is it hard to take responsibility, Indonesian moslems, that there's something wrong in Islam? I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?



searching
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Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.

What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted God's Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"

ISN'T IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?

Haven't I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?

And don't ever dare blaming all the Indonesian Society. Don't YOU ever dare. There are a lot of good people in Indonesian society. And to blame others like Christians, HIndus, etc will not whitewash all you have done wrong.

Why is it hard to take responsibility, Indonesian moslems, that there's something wrong in Islam? I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?



kathryn pollard
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I wonder why whoever carried our the gross acts of cruelty and violence on the beautiful island of Sulawesi chose 3 young women who were Christians.
We live in a topsy turvy world. I do not jump to blame the most likely culprits.

There are people across the globe who have goals that they seek to reach by subversive methods including using other people to fire their shots. "Whatever it takes" tactics can have devastating consequences for naive people who can very easily become pawns.

Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.

To seek to understand the mind set and sick psyche of people who condone and carry out such acts as the beheading of 3 young women is just too difficult.
If the goal of the people who instigated and carried out the killings is to create divisions in Indonesian society then the people of Sulawesi and other places need to be warned.

I am sorry for all the good citizens of Indonesia. From what I have learnt your current President is an astute and intelligent leader with an advanced capacity to understand the complexities of his nations people.



kathryn pollard
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I wonder why whoever carried our the gross acts of cruelty and violence on the beautiful island of Sulawesi chose 3 young women who were Christians.
We live in a topsy turvy world. I do not jump to blame the most likely culprits.

There are people across the globe who have goals that they seek to reach by subversive methods including using other people to fire their shots. "Whatever it takes" tactics can have devastating consequences for naive people who can very easily become pawns.

Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.

To seek to understand the mind set and sick psyche of people who condone and carry out such acts as the beheading of 3 young women is just too difficult.
If the goal of the people who instigated and carried out the killings is to create divisions in Indonesian society then the people of Sulawesi and other places need to be warned.

I am sorry for all the good citizens of Indonesia. From what I have learnt your current President is an astute and intelligent leader with an advanced capacity to understand the complexities of his nations people.



searching
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Kathryn,

With all my respect, please don't be politically correct. We are talking about Islam Fundamentalists, why then you include Christians? There are onnly Islam Fundamentalists in Indonesia. Don't try to follow Bush and Blair. They are all dhimmis. They say Islam is a religion of peace. You know the complete sentence of the verse about humanity?

"Hai Children of Israel....if you kill a man than you kill mankind". So, is it for moslems? The verse is FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You let yourself fooled all the time. Why? Why the west become moslem apologists???

If you want to know more, please visit www.faithfreedom.org, where all the lies are unveiled.


Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.


Pawns or not, they are here and there's no use in denying this.



searching
User
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Kathryn,

With all my respect, please don't be politically correct. We are talking about Islam Fundamentalists, why then you include Christians? There are onnly Islam Fundamentalists in Indonesia. Don't try to follow Bush and Blair. They are all dhimmis. They say Islam is a religion of peace. You know the complete sentence of the verse about humanity?

"Hai Children of Israel....if you kill a man than you kill mankind". So, is it for moslems? The verse is FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You let yourself fooled all the time. Why? Why the west become moslem apologists???

If you want to know more, please visit www.faithfreedom.org, where all the lies are unveiled.


Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.


Pawns or not, they are here and there's no use in denying this.



principe
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The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.

It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.

NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.

TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.

However the debate in this forum is getting several twists and looses its original and central focus.

Javanese kolonialism, religious intolerance, corruption etc start to infiltrate this debate.

I just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.

I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.

I wonder how such a survey will mirror itself in westerm European society when it comes to muslims and mosques in their respective neighbourhoods.
I remember quite some paint smearing on the walls of when the first mosque in a Dutch city was build. I remember plenty of verbal abuses as well.

I know for a fact that when a foreigner (often coloured) entered a room in wester european countries you could hear people think " their you have an immigrant". Nowadays you can hear them think "their you have an immigrant and a muslim"

In Indonesia you could hear similar prejudices when it comes to pig eating, liquor drinking immoral christian converting westerners etc.

And we can go on and on. But it strikes me though that Indonesians keep on being on the defensive when it comes to Muslims and Islam in general. As if they can do no wrong. Like Christians?westeners who think "only muslims can do such wrongs".

I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)

I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth






principe
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The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.

It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.

NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.

TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.

However the debate in this forum is getting several twists and looses its original and central focus.

Javanese kolonialism, religious intolerance, corruption etc start to infiltrate this debate.

I just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.

I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.

I wonder how such a survey will mirror itself in westerm European society when it comes to muslims and mosques in their respective neighbourhoods.
I remember quite some paint smearing on the walls of when the first mosque in a Dutch city was build. I remember plenty of verbal abuses as well.

I know for a fact that when a foreigner (often coloured) entered a room in wester european countries you could hear people think " their you have an immigrant". Nowadays you can hear them think "their you have an immigrant and a muslim"

In Indonesia you could hear similar prejudices when it comes to pig eating, liquor drinking immoral christian converting westerners etc.

And we can go on and on. But it strikes me though that Indonesians keep on being on the defensive when it comes to Muslims and Islam in general. As if they can do no wrong. Like Christians?westeners who think "only muslims can do such wrongs".

I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)

I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth






sidia
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:


Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.

a.What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"


b.Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist???

c.I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?


Dear Searcher ,
1st Welcome to you , you are back again.Very nice.
a. some group ?
b. Not the Bible , you mean the other Book ?
And everyone (everyone ?) have the possibilities to be a terorist (terorist).
What about owners ?
It seem very (VERY) spooky to me.
c. of course you are not a dhimmi(?)

And I got yr messg.

And the West : why the west become moslem apologist ?
Why ?? . Yes , why ?? , Sidia cant give the answer .
Please answer him . Pse ??







sidia
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:


Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.

a.What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"


b.Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist???

c.I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?


Dear Searcher ,
1st Welcome to you , you are back again.Very nice.
a. some group ?
b. Not the Bible , you mean the other Book ?
And everyone (everyone ?) have the possibilities to be a terorist (terorist).
What about owners ?
It seem very (VERY) spooky to me.
c. of course you are not a dhimmi(?)

And I got yr messg.

And the West : why the west become moslem apologist ?
Why ?? . Yes , why ?? , Sidia cant give the answer .
Please answer him . Pse ??







searching
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[The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.


I don't take SABILI as a reliable resource. What is your resource? DUNIA ISLAM? the story is as ridiculous as the story that Israel was behind the 9/11.


just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.

I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.


Two wrong don't make one right, my friend. So Tu quoque is not your way to avoid from being responsible. The only thing you can say is that I MISQUOTE or THE PHRASE IS NOT IN QURAN. But it is. You are just another moslem or another Islam apologist. Welcome and join Bush and Blair.


I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)

I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth


The only "hatred" sermon I've ever heard in a Church was by calling the Mosque to be "Onion Church". And I disliked the priest for saying that. But please, we are talking about ISLAM EXTREMISTS IN INDONESIA. Don't be out of topic.





searching
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[The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.


I don't take SABILI as a reliable resource. What is your resource? DUNIA ISLAM? the story is as ridiculous as the story that Israel was behind the 9/11.


just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.

I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.


Two wrong don't make one right, my friend. So Tu quoque is not your way to avoid from being responsible. The only thing you can say is that I MISQUOTE or THE PHRASE IS NOT IN QURAN. But it is. You are just another moslem or another Islam apologist. Welcome and join Bush and Blair.


I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)

I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth


The only "hatred" sermon I've ever heard in a Church was by calling the Mosque to be "Onion Church". And I disliked the priest for saying that. But please, we are talking about ISLAM EXTREMISTS IN INDONESIA. Don't be out of topic.





Jantje
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"

ISNT IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?

Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?



These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B. Emoticon: Nooo



Jantje
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"

ISNT IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?

Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?



These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B. Emoticon: Nooo



sidia
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On 31-10-2005 09:11 Jantje wrote:

...


These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B. Emoticon: Nooo


Maybe a few lines in A book or bookS. ?
We in Holland know who Mr . B is , but the Non Dutch ?

Searcher no 29 :
Christian is NOT an Unbeliever , they are children of the books (like the jews).
They believe in the same God as the Muslim.




sidia
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On 31-10-2005 09:11 Jantje wrote:

...


These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B. Emoticon: Nooo


Maybe a few lines in A book or bookS. ?
We in Holland know who Mr . B is , but the Non Dutch ?

Searcher no 29 :
Christian is NOT an Unbeliever , they are children of the books (like the jews).
They believe in the same God as the Muslim.




Jantje
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Ok then, for the non-Dutch: The Dutch celebrity, filmmaker Theo van Gogh, family of the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh was brutaly slaughtered a year ago by a moslim extremist Mohammed B.
He must have been inspired by the "holy book's" fraze: Smite their necks.
The middle ages in 2004! Emoticon: Angry
This fraze could very well have appealed to the idiots that killed these innocent girls.



Jantje
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Ok then, for the non-Dutch: The Dutch celebrity, filmmaker Theo van Gogh, family of the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh was brutaly slaughtered a year ago by a moslim extremist Mohammed B.
He must have been inspired by the "holy book's" fraze: Smite their necks.
The middle ages in 2004! Emoticon: Angry
This fraze could very well have appealed to the idiots that killed these innocent girls.



Fotograaf
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I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?

This might also be the case in this latest attack. It's not wise to make assumptions on forehand.

Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.



Fotograaf
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I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?

This might also be the case in this latest attack. It's not wise to make assumptions on forehand.

Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.



sidia
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:


Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.


Yes , he is well informed. See his other mssg : Dont cry for me indonesia.
Principe , thanks for yr contribution.



sidia
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:


Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.


Yes , he is well informed. See his other mssg : Dont cry for me indonesia.
Principe , thanks for yr contribution.



principe
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To searching: I wonder if you really read what I wrote...

My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id

Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,

Others:

street gossip. general public opinion in Jakarta and outside Jakarta.

but most of all my daily life experience in Indonesia and my common sense.

I am not a Journalist but a researcher cum business man with an Indonesian lawyer as my wife and as my biggest source of Indonesian inspirational justice.




principe
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spacer line
 

To searching: I wonder if you really read what I wrote...

My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id

Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,

Others:

street gossip. general public opinion in Jakarta and outside Jakarta.

but most of all my daily life experience in Indonesia and my common sense.

I am not a Journalist but a researcher cum business man with an Indonesian lawyer as my wife and as my biggest source of Indonesian inspirational justice.




principe
User
spacer line
 


On 31-10-2005 09:29 sidia wrote:

...


They believe in the same God as the Muslim.


Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).

When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.




principe
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On 31-10-2005 09:29 sidia wrote:

...


They believe in the same God as the Muslim.


Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).

When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.




principe
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated


I do not know for sure. Some psychology may come in hand but can be rejected just as fast.

It is just a psychology theory: The psychology ends with a natural fear of death and starts with common resentment. Every stage of the process in between like being singled out, looked upon, maginalized, aliented, threatened,become a minority, end up powerless, incomeless, losing basic needs adds to the basic fear of finally lossing ones control over life and in the end life itself.

So if you would ask by generalizing why Muslim majority Indonesians or European christian Majority hates "the other" you may try and fit the above chain of fear into your specific environmental profile.

No scientific certainty, just a thaught



principe
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks Emoticon: Frustrated


I do not know for sure. Some psychology may come in hand but can be rejected just as fast.

It is just a psychology theory: The psychology ends with a natural fear of death and starts with common resentment. Every stage of the process in between like being singled out, looked upon, maginalized, aliented, threatened,become a minority, end up powerless, incomeless, losing basic needs adds to the basic fear of finally lossing ones control over life and in the end life itself.

So if you would ask by generalizing why Muslim majority Indonesians or European christian Majority hates "the other" you may try and fit the above chain of fear into your specific environmental profile.

No scientific certainty, just a thaught



searching
User
spacer line
 


My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id

Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,


Funny, may be we don't read the same KOMPAS. Yesterday KOMPAS (31 Oct) that I read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the peope there have lost trust to the POLICE.
The story also said that it was suspected the doers COME FROM OUTSIDE of the AREA.
You may check it. And where is your source, if I may ask?

And Mr. Detective, think with your brain WHY IT IS ALWAYS THE CHRISTIANS to be the victims. If those COKER really wants to fuel a riot, just kill MOSLEMS and surely there will be a riot and LASKAR JIHAD will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.

Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.



searching
User
spacer line
 


My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id

Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,


Funny, may be we don't read the same KOMPAS. Yesterday KOMPAS (31 Oct) that I read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the peope there have lost trust to the POLICE.
The story also said that it was suspected the doers COME FROM OUTSIDE of the AREA.
You may check it. And where is your source, if I may ask?

And Mr. Detective, think with your brain WHY IT IS ALWAYS THE CHRISTIANS to be the victims. If those COKER really wants to fuel a riot, just kill MOSLEMS and surely there will be a riot and LASKAR JIHAD will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.

Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.



sidia
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User icon of sidia
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On 01-11-2005 03:39 principe wrote:

...


Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).



Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.

My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)

Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .

see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .







sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 01-11-2005 03:39 principe wrote:

...


Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).



Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.

My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)

Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .

see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .







sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 01-11-2005 04:36 searching wrote:

...


Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.


Searching
Can you give me yr honest opinion about this text :
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them , bring them here and kill them in front of me .





sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 01-11-2005 04:36 searching wrote:

...


Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.


Searching
Can you give me yr honest opinion about this text :
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them , bring them here and kill them in front of me .





AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 01 November 2005 16:11


On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?

This might also be the case in this latest attack. Its not wise to make assumptions on forehand.

Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.


Salamat s.mua yth.,

Yes, ........ we must not forget to question ourselves who would benefit from these attacks: not ordinary christians and not ordinary islamists, but people who want this "crazy situation" still happens.
Members of the 'Coker' gang were forced to commit these attacks, if they do not do, they themselves would be attacked !!!
So who are these 'extremists' ???
I think it is also a method to 'shock' people in general, be it christians or islamists !!!
In LIbanon influential political leaders are being attacked, how come in INDOnesia they are not ??? "Why only ordinary people ???"




AnisJ
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User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 01 November 2005 16:11


On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?

This might also be the case in this latest attack. Its not wise to make assumptions on forehand.

Well written Principe! Emoticon: Yes! You could be a journalist.


Salamat s.mua yth.,

Yes, ........ we must not forget to question ourselves who would benefit from these attacks: not ordinary christians and not ordinary islamists, but people who want this "crazy situation" still happens.
Members of the 'Coker' gang were forced to commit these attacks, if they do not do, they themselves would be attacked !!!
So who are these 'extremists' ???
I think it is also a method to 'shock' people in general, be it christians or islamists !!!
In LIbanon influential political leaders are being attacked, how come in INDOnesia they are not ??? "Why only ordinary people ???"




principe
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(Moderated) Posted @ 01 November 2005 16:14





principe
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(Moderated) Posted @ 01 November 2005 16:14





principe
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On 01-11-2005 09:33 sidia wrote:

...


Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.

My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)

Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .

see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .






I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.



principe
User
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On 01-11-2005 09:33 sidia wrote:

...


Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.

My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)

Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .

see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .






I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.



mashil
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pfffffffffffffffffffff

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pfffffffffffffffffffff

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principe
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[quote] On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...



You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.

[

I dont say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.

Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?

I am talking facts as presented to me through different source ( I tried to give you an interesting link, but you have to spare the time to really read them one by one, like I do) and a tentative analysis based on these fact including my assumptions. And as I wrote before
in my first posting in this forum "....any scenario or combination of it may be valid"
I remember I asked you whether you really read what I wrote. Because besides the above I also clearly stated that: "...NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators IN MY OPINION....."

I hope you understand that some accounts were presented and I gave my personal analysis (just my insight) that can be in the end very far from the mark. But you seem to react pretty agitated for me expressing my opinion. I wonder why ?


I dont want to read much, dont have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya.

According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.

Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I dont spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.

I am afraid you are, like many other posted messages in this and any other forum. But nobody is forcing you. I just wonder what you are so agited about ?


And I will respect if you dont write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.

i apologize for the Caps. I was not intending to shout, I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.





principe
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[quote] On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...



You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.

[

I dont say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.

Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?

I am talking facts as presented to me through different source ( I tried to give you an interesting link, but you have to spare the time to really read them one by one, like I do) and a tentative analysis based on these fact including my assumptions. And as I wrote before
in my first posting in this forum "....any scenario or combination of it may be valid"
I remember I asked you whether you really read what I wrote. Because besides the above I also clearly stated that: "...NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators IN MY OPINION....."

I hope you understand that some accounts were presented and I gave my personal analysis (just my insight) that can be in the end very far from the mark. But you seem to react pretty agitated for me expressing my opinion. I wonder why ?


I dont want to read much, dont have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya.

According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.

Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I dont spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.

I am afraid you are, like many other posted messages in this and any other forum. But nobody is forcing you. I just wonder what you are so agited about ?


And I will respect if you dont write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.

i apologize for the Caps. I was not intending to shout, I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.





Jeroen
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I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.


Using caps is on your keyboard, not on this forum Emoticon: Clown But I will forgive you Emoticon: Yes!



Jeroen
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I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.


Using caps is on your keyboard, not on this forum Emoticon: Clown But I will forgive you Emoticon: Yes!



sidia
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On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...

And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE ONE RIGHT.

I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?





sidia
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On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...

And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE ONE RIGHT.

I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?





searching
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:


You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.


As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be. Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
That's my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.


What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesn't make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, that's my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.


What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:

http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834

In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?

And SIDIA


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?


Please use Complete American English Dictionary. If after using it you think I mean about Supermie or else, then it's up to you.














searching
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:


You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.


As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be. Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
That's my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.


What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesn't make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, that's my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.


What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:

http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834

In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?

And SIDIA


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?


Please use Complete American English Dictionary. If after using it you think I mean about Supermie or else, then it's up to you.














Yogya-Bali
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Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met z'n islamitische en z'n christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)



Yogya-Bali
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Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met z'n islamitische en z'n christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)



Yogya-Bali
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By the way, ik neem het hier niet op voor de christenen maar zie het liever neutraal. Ik kan op dit forum niet ontkomen aan de drang van sommige forumleden om almaar de islam te moeten verdedigen. Ook van christenen, maar daar zitten een hoop niet onderbouwde, nietszeggende schreeuwen tussen die ik niet serieus neem.



Yogya-Bali
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By the way, ik neem het hier niet op voor de christenen maar zie het liever neutraal. Ik kan op dit forum niet ontkomen aan de drang van sommige forumleden om almaar de islam te moeten verdedigen. Ook van christenen, maar daar zitten een hoop niet onderbouwde, nietszeggende schreeuwen tussen die ik niet serieus neem.



Yogya-Bali
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Dear Yerun, excuse me that I was using the wrong language. Just whipe it out. Here is the one in English:

Dear Principe, there's a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum. Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
The so-called busdriver and his friend from Batu Merah (the small christian part of Batu Merah near Mardika, across the road) are wellknown by me (famliy, both originally from Aboru, Haruku-island), and also a lot of inhabitants of Soya Atas are wllknown for me (relatives of my best friend). I know of the existence of the Coker problem and gang, but not that they were involved in the Soya Atas raid as perpetrators.

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)




Yogya-Bali
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Dear Yerun, excuse me that I was using the wrong language. Just whipe it out. Here is the one in English:

Dear Principe, there's a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum. Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
The so-called busdriver and his friend from Batu Merah (the small christian part of Batu Merah near Mardika, across the road) are wellknown by me (famliy, both originally from Aboru, Haruku-island), and also a lot of inhabitants of Soya Atas are wllknown for me (relatives of my best friend). I know of the existence of the Coker problem and gang, but not that they were involved in the Soya Atas raid as perpetrators.

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)




Yogya-Bali
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By the way, I am not defending the Christians but like tob e neutral. I cannot escape on this forum from the idea that some members have the urge always to defend islam. Also from Christians, but between them are lot of non-saying, not well-founded, screaming reactions between which I don't take serious.



Yogya-Bali
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By the way, I am not defending the Christians but like tob e neutral. I cannot escape on this forum from the idea that some members have the urge always to defend islam. Also from Christians, but between them are lot of non-saying, not well-founded, screaming reactions between which I don't take serious.



sidia
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On 03-11-2005 08:04 Yogya-Bali wrote:

Dear Principe, theres a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum.
Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)


Y-B.
I am agree .
For you, people in ambon , outside ambon even in people in holland from indonesian origine can "understand" about "premanism", the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages.
But it is not easy for a tourist /foreigners with a several travelexperiences to understand it like the people from indonesia.

I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
I only try to give some information ,the other side of the medal , because as you can read , there are some people in this site who are judging , shouting , even insulting the indonesian in general .
I dont agree if some one think that a fora is a place to insulting people , because every fora have standard rules.( see FAQ).



sidia
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On 03-11-2005 08:04 Yogya-Bali wrote:

Dear Principe, theres a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum.
Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)


Y-B.
I am agree .
For you, people in ambon , outside ambon even in people in holland from indonesian origine can "understand" about "premanism", the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages.
But it is not easy for a tourist /foreigners with a several travelexperiences to understand it like the people from indonesia.

I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
I only try to give some information ,the other side of the medal , because as you can read , there are some people in this site who are judging , shouting , even insulting the indonesian in general .
I dont agree if some one think that a fora is a place to insulting people , because every fora have standard rules.( see FAQ).



sidia
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Searcher for truth ,

I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .

Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .

According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .

I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .

I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.





sidia
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Searcher for truth ,

I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .

Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .

According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .

I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .

I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.





sascha
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On 03-11-2005 08:34 sidia wrote:

...


I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion. I dont see enough improvements over there.

Over topic ur comparision with lines out of the bible. As u liked to say its comparing apples with pears. Besides some sects nobody takes literally all whats written in the holy book nowadays. In the muslim world there are also tendencies, but far more preach word for word as its written.

all of the above I.M.H.O




sascha
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On 03-11-2005 08:34 sidia wrote:

...


I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion. I dont see enough improvements over there.

Over topic ur comparision with lines out of the bible. As u liked to say its comparing apples with pears. Besides some sects nobody takes literally all whats written in the holy book nowadays. In the muslim world there are also tendencies, but far more preach word for word as its written.

all of the above I.M.H.O




sidia
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On 03-11-2005 12:11 sascha wrote:

...


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion.
all of the above I.M.H.O


also I.M.H.O.



sidia
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On 03-11-2005 12:11 sascha wrote:

...


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion.
all of the above I.M.H.O


also I.M.H.O.



sascha
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It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx



sascha
User
User icon of sascha
spacer line
 

It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx



principe
User
spacer line
 

Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:

As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something

(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.

A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.

A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be.

I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.

Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.

i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.

Thats my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.

Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.

I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!

The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.

Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.

What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.

I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.


...




What reports? Is it trustable or not?

From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:



http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834



In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?



you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.

I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.

yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




principe
User
spacer line
 

Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:

As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something

(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.

A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.

A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be.

I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.

Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.

i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.

Thats my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.

Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.

I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!

The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.

Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.

What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.

I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.


...




What reports? Is it trustable or not?

From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:



http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834



In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?



you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.

I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.

yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




principe
User
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 07:18 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met zn islamitische en zn christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)


Dear Sir, MAdam
My posting was not intended to attack nor defend muslims or christians . I do admit that I pointed my finger to the possible involvement of military elements in the slayings of the three Poso girls and in later postings the Soya incident. Who knows I might be totally wrong when the truth is revealed. I am certainly not thinking in terms of two wrongs make it right. In fact my approach is rather to identify two wrongs. As such I tried to explain the views of the muslim and christian communities in general (in Indonesia today) regarding the Holy Triinity for instance. To observe and reproduce is most rewarding to me as this expands understandings in my view. However when prejudice rules debates it is wise not to become labelled. As such I hope you understand the reluctance of me answering your question. It will blur the message how reasonable it maybe. As if wearing an AC milan shirt will never give credence to Inter extended compliments. Thank you for appreciating my contribution





principe
User
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 07:18 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met zn islamitische en zn christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)


Dear Sir, MAdam
My posting was not intended to attack nor defend muslims or christians . I do admit that I pointed my finger to the possible involvement of military elements in the slayings of the three Poso girls and in later postings the Soya incident. Who knows I might be totally wrong when the truth is revealed. I am certainly not thinking in terms of two wrongs make it right. In fact my approach is rather to identify two wrongs. As such I tried to explain the views of the muslim and christian communities in general (in Indonesia today) regarding the Holy Triinity for instance. To observe and reproduce is most rewarding to me as this expands understandings in my view. However when prejudice rules debates it is wise not to become labelled. As such I hope you understand the reluctance of me answering your question. It will blur the message how reasonable it maybe. As if wearing an AC milan shirt will never give credence to Inter extended compliments. Thank you for appreciating my contribution





searching
User
spacer line
 

To Sidia:




I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)

You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)

My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)

Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .



Now : My answer :

I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.

Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .



According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .

That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .



I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .

If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)

Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .



I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.



dhimmi: The people subjugated by Islam and have to pay Jiyzah. It's according to the quran that moslem must strive to dominate and other people of the book should become dhimmies (subjugated), while pagans should be slayed.

That's my understanding.



noodle: is a slang for brain/mind.



To Principe:


A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.





Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected.




I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.





You still haven't told me what reports are they.




i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.





Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya.




Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.



I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!



The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.



Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.





You forget one thing, that Moslems here like LASKAR JIHAD, have their own military trainings. Not that I say your story is completely impossible. That's why we need to see the motives and careful in concluding anything.




I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.




In Islam, it's called Taqiyya. Moslems are permitted to lie, when they perceive the situation as war. Please read Quran and Hadits to countercheck what I said here.




you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.



I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.



yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




It's nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions.



My other assumption is based on what is stated in quran: Invoke terror in the heart of the disbeliever. You can check that there are verses like this in quran, and you can check hadits too, to see if I am not bullshitting. So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror. And since the fall of Soeharto, the TNI and such have no power to overcome it. In the past, they can use "Penembak Misterius" (an evil method to kill people without being known, usually to kill preman). But now, after the press becomes so free, then it's almost impossible to do anything without people screaming.

If I meet my Ambonese friends, I will ask them and let you know the result, but cannot promise, because I lost contact with them for so many years.



To Yogya Bali:

Not necessarily that westerners defend Islam because of marriage, but because it's politically correct. They will say that Islam is the religion of peace. That's why I urge you to read www.faithfreedom.org (a site of an ex-moslem's). After that, you can read www.faithfreedom.com (a site to answer the first site) , so you will understand which one is right and which one is not. And you can be more objective.



To Sascha:

Sometimes, it's important to scream if you meet a certain type of personality. So I will not blame you for that.



To Jeroen:

Have a nice day. I know I bring a lot of headache to your young mind. So I do apologize. And if you don't mind, you may tell Principe how to use quotation, so his answers will not mix with mine.



searching
User
spacer line
 

To Sidia:




I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)

You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)

My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)

Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .



Now : My answer :

I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.

Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .



According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .

That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .



I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .

If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)

Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .



I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.



dhimmi: The people subjugated by Islam and have to pay Jiyzah. It's according to the quran that moslem must strive to dominate and other people of the book should become dhimmies (subjugated), while pagans should be slayed.

That's my understanding.



noodle: is a slang for brain/mind.



To Principe:


A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.





Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected.




I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.





You still haven't told me what reports are they.




i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.





Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya.




Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.



I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!



The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.



Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.





You forget one thing, that Moslems here like LASKAR JIHAD, have their own military trainings. Not that I say your story is completely impossible. That's why we need to see the motives and careful in concluding anything.




I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.




In Islam, it's called Taqiyya. Moslems are permitted to lie, when they perceive the situation as war. Please read Quran and Hadits to countercheck what I said here.




you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.



I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.



yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




It's nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions.



My other assumption is based on what is stated in quran: Invoke terror in the heart of the disbeliever. You can check that there are verses like this in quran, and you can check hadits too, to see if I am not bullshitting. So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror. And since the fall of Soeharto, the TNI and such have no power to overcome it. In the past, they can use "Penembak Misterius" (an evil method to kill people without being known, usually to kill preman). But now, after the press becomes so free, then it's almost impossible to do anything without people screaming.

If I meet my Ambonese friends, I will ask them and let you know the result, but cannot promise, because I lost contact with them for so many years.



To Yogya Bali:

Not necessarily that westerners defend Islam because of marriage, but because it's politically correct. They will say that Islam is the religion of peace. That's why I urge you to read www.faithfreedom.org (a site of an ex-moslem's). After that, you can read www.faithfreedom.com (a site to answer the first site) , so you will understand which one is right and which one is not. And you can be more objective.



To Sascha:

Sometimes, it's important to scream if you meet a certain type of personality. So I will not blame you for that.



To Jeroen:

Have a nice day. I know I bring a lot of headache to your young mind. So I do apologize. And if you don't mind, you may tell Principe how to use quotation, so his answers will not mix with mine.



Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 03 November 2005 15:07

Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.searching:

You can use quotes by using :


You can then simply put the text from others you want to quote between the tags. You can plat a little with it by hitting the preview button first to see if you have what you wanted to have.

Don't worry to much about the rest Emoticon: Wink



Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 03 November 2005 15:07

Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.searching:

You can use quotes by using :


You can then simply put the text from others you want to quote between the tags. You can plat a little with it by hitting the preview button first to see if you have what you wanted to have.

Don't worry to much about the rest Emoticon: Wink



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 03-11-2005 13:45 sascha wrote:
It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx


At least 3 reason.
1.the numbers of ambonese people
2 .the socialstructure of their community.
3. their geographic spreading


As you see Almost Everybody know everybody , friends , family and don't forget their Adat , Pela.
The beginning of the problems : You can read in several sites about it , i.m.o it is only a Conflict of Interest , later escalated to the so called SARA .

I am sure they can solve the problem , because they Must solve it.
To live peacefully with their neighbours and friends.
See Balkan.
It easy to fight against strangers , but not easy if you must fight against friends , families.





sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 13:45 sascha wrote:
It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx


At least 3 reason.
1.the numbers of ambonese people
2 .the socialstructure of their community.
3. their geographic spreading


As you see Almost Everybody know everybody , friends , family and don't forget their Adat , Pela.
The beginning of the problems : You can read in several sites about it , i.m.o it is only a Conflict of Interest , later escalated to the so called SARA .

I am sure they can solve the problem , because they Must solve it.
To live peacefully with their neighbours and friends.
See Balkan.
It easy to fight against strangers , but not easy if you must fight against friends , families.





principe
User
spacer line
 


Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected<


Searching I do not want to be rude. Nor do I want to lecture you in a blitz on subjects that took me some 6 years to grasp and many more years of experience to perfect.


And I do not want to sound vain either. And I do not want to give you the impression that I try to avoid answering, but I wonder if this reaches an acceptable point

OK, here you go and I quote

In traditional Aristotelian logic, deductive reasoning is inference in which the conclusion is of lesser or equal generality than the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion is of greater generality than the premises. Other theories of logic define deductive reasoning as inference in which the conclusion is just as certain as the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion can have less certainty than the premises. In both approaches, the conclusion of a deductive inference is necessitated by the premises: the premises can't be true while the conclusion is false. (In Aristotelian logic, the premises in inductive reasoning can also be related in this way to the conclusion

example Valid:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
The picture is above the desk.
The desk is above the floor.
Therefore the picture is above the floor.

Invalid:


Every criminal opposes the government.
Everyone in the opposition party opposes the government.
Therefore everyone in the opposition party is a criminal.

This is invalid because the premises fail to establish commonality between membership in the opposition party and being a criminal. This is the famous fallacy of undistributed middle

Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion, but do not ensure it. It is to ascribe properties or relations to types based on limited observations of particular tokens; or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns. Induction is used, for example, in using specific propositions such as

The ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.
to infer general propositions such as

All ice is cold. or: There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.

I sense though that you are also making attempts to clearify the definition of science

I quote again

Science is defined as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

unquote



Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya


I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.

Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.

Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?


nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude


We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me


that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions


And our capacity to analyse




So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror.


Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION



After the press becomes so free, then it\s almost impossible to do anything without people screaming


Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.



principe
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Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected<


Searching I do not want to be rude. Nor do I want to lecture you in a blitz on subjects that took me some 6 years to grasp and many more years of experience to perfect.


And I do not want to sound vain either. And I do not want to give you the impression that I try to avoid answering, but I wonder if this reaches an acceptable point

OK, here you go and I quote

In traditional Aristotelian logic, deductive reasoning is inference in which the conclusion is of lesser or equal generality than the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion is of greater generality than the premises. Other theories of logic define deductive reasoning as inference in which the conclusion is just as certain as the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion can have less certainty than the premises. In both approaches, the conclusion of a deductive inference is necessitated by the premises: the premises can't be true while the conclusion is false. (In Aristotelian logic, the premises in inductive reasoning can also be related in this way to the conclusion

example Valid:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
The picture is above the desk.
The desk is above the floor.
Therefore the picture is above the floor.

Invalid:


Every criminal opposes the government.
Everyone in the opposition party opposes the government.
Therefore everyone in the opposition party is a criminal.

This is invalid because the premises fail to establish commonality between membership in the opposition party and being a criminal. This is the famous fallacy of undistributed middle

Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion, but do not ensure it. It is to ascribe properties or relations to types based on limited observations of particular tokens; or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns. Induction is used, for example, in using specific propositions such as

The ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.
to infer general propositions such as

All ice is cold. or: There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.

I sense though that you are also making attempts to clearify the definition of science

I quote again

Science is defined as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

unquote



Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya


I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.

Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.

Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?


nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude


We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me


that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions


And our capacity to analyse




So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror.


Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION



After the press becomes so free, then it\s almost impossible to do anything without people screaming


Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.



sascha
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Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
Without international interference they would still kill each other there.
Muslims, catholics or orthodox they all tried genocide on one another there.
So then i must assume some peace keeping force would be the only thing that helps in indonesia. Because they would have no interest for one or the other side. You can only trust the Indonesian forces to a certain extend as reports from aceh, timur and what principe says are true. So foreigners should be involved.



sascha
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Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
Without international interference they would still kill each other there.
Muslims, catholics or orthodox they all tried genocide on one another there.
So then i must assume some peace keeping force would be the only thing that helps in indonesia. Because they would have no interest for one or the other side. You can only trust the Indonesian forces to a certain extend as reports from aceh, timur and what principe says are true. So foreigners should be involved.



sidia
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On 03-11-2005 04:55 searching wrote:


. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


...


. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS.

Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


...


a. No doubt . Sure if you only repeating the same arguments.
And other people with diff. opinion is according you a apologist , detective etc .etc
Debat kusir.

b. Never heard of conspiracy ?.
F.E the Tonkin Incident , the reason to begin the Vietnam War.
To me they (the Coker) are premans with certain interest.
They are NOT christian .
And I am NOT Blaming other christian.

c.Yes , it is only yours.Yr Truth.
I cant follow it.
But I still read yr mssg with pleasure.














sidia
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On 03-11-2005 04:55 searching wrote:


. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


...


. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS.

Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


...


a. No doubt . Sure if you only repeating the same arguments.
And other people with diff. opinion is according you a apologist , detective etc .etc
Debat kusir.

b. Never heard of conspiracy ?.
F.E the Tonkin Incident , the reason to begin the Vietnam War.
To me they (the Coker) are premans with certain interest.
They are NOT christian .
And I am NOT Blaming other christian.

c.Yes , it is only yours.Yr Truth.
I cant follow it.
But I still read yr mssg with pleasure.














sidia
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On 03-11-2005 22:15 sascha wrote:
Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.

So foreigners should be involved.


b. YES , sure , they are welcome .
Are you kidding ?? , a bad joke.
They can solve their own problem.
see A. Balkan .
The trouble begin with the involving of outstanders.
And If (BIG IF) , I am sure never, the Indonesian People let foreigners to solve the problems ., what kind of method will they use ?.
With only talking or with force . (read : Killing/ bombing people).

a.See example Irak : The so called civilzed countries (exc. D/F) will free the Iraks , because their leader torture and kill peoples.
And "guess the "liberators are throwing bombs etc. Also Killing people .






sidia
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On 03-11-2005 22:15 sascha wrote:
Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.

So foreigners should be involved.


b. YES , sure , they are welcome .
Are you kidding ?? , a bad joke.
They can solve their own problem.
see A. Balkan .
The trouble begin with the involving of outstanders.
And If (BIG IF) , I am sure never, the Indonesian People let foreigners to solve the problems ., what kind of method will they use ?.
With only talking or with force . (read : Killing/ bombing people).

a.See example Irak : The so called civilzed countries (exc. D/F) will free the Iraks , because their leader torture and kill peoples.
And "guess the "liberators are throwing bombs etc. Also Killing people .






sascha
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Its not an joke, just an idea.
and please u may know much about indonesia, but u better study some of the history of the balkan conflict.
Its a problem from within, it was a struggle for independence of the former parts of the yugoslavian republic. What have 'outstanders'?!?! to do with that??
Im talking about a peace keeping mission not a war
I think the for example the german troops in kosovo and bosnia do a good job.

the iraq war is a different matter, the colateral damage was used for propaganda. less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.



sascha
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Its not an joke, just an idea.
and please u may know much about indonesia, but u better study some of the history of the balkan conflict.
Its a problem from within, it was a struggle for independence of the former parts of the yugoslavian republic. What have 'outstanders'?!?! to do with that??
Im talking about a peace keeping mission not a war
I think the for example the german troops in kosovo and bosnia do a good job.

the iraq war is a different matter, the colateral damage was used for propaganda. less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.



sidia
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On 04-11-2005 10:07 sascha wrote:

the iraq war is a different matter,

the colateral damage was used for propaganda.

less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.


Less people ?? , so be it .
But they throw (big) bombs in cities .Collateral damages , of course .
That is a normal way of going war ? , remember Dresden and other Deutsche Cities at W.W. II . ?? . Less died people , casualties of war .
Their own dead US soldiers etc etc. In name of democrasy ?



sidia
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On 04-11-2005 10:07 sascha wrote:

the iraq war is a different matter,

the colateral damage was used for propaganda.

less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.


Less people ?? , so be it .
But they throw (big) bombs in cities .Collateral damages , of course .
That is a normal way of going war ? , remember Dresden and other Deutsche Cities at W.W. II . ?? . Less died people , casualties of war .
Their own dead US soldiers etc etc. In name of democrasy ?



sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 November 2005 10:54

sidia iraq is totally off topic and has nothing to do with my idea.
i still dont like ur way of discussion. Emoticon: Nooo

i just put it as extra point but it was not the main topic we discussed.



sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 04 November 2005 10:54

sidia iraq is totally off topic and has nothing to do with my idea.
i still dont like ur way of discussion. Emoticon: Nooo

i just put it as extra point but it was not the main topic we discussed.



sidia
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O.K.

Indonesia is a sovereign country .



sidia
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O.K.

Indonesia is a sovereign country .



AnisJ
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On 01-11-2005 16:33 principe wrote:

...



I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.


Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature" Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
As we 'human beings' do not have a mobile phone with God we can not ask him why he has revealed him, as for christians, in this way .......
Some say that Jesus himself was a personifacation of God himself for us 'human beings', I myself I do not know ...... I better stick to believing, that is hard enough.

Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.
I also do not accuse, as a christian, 'believers of Islam' that they believe into two/2 'Allah and Mohammed' ......



AnisJ
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On 01-11-2005 16:33 principe wrote:

...



I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.


Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature" Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
As we 'human beings' do not have a mobile phone with God we can not ask him why he has revealed him, as for christians, in this way .......
Some say that Jesus himself was a personifacation of God himself for us 'human beings', I myself I do not know ...... I better stick to believing, that is hard enough.

Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.
I also do not accuse, as a christian, 'believers of Islam' that they believe into two/2 'Allah and Mohammed' ......



principe
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On 04-11-2005 18:46 AnisJ wrote:

...

AnisJ Yth
Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature" Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused


In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion.



Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.


yes I know


I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......

I think that Muslims do not claim that Mohammad is the personification of GOD, but simply His messenger. But the fact that in the book of Mary (within the Koran, reference is made to Jezus, Mary AND THE HOLY GHOST, makes me wonder whether Indonesian Muslims can accuse or reject the Holy Trinity when the Koran itself makes reference to it without rejecting it . I invite evrybody to read the follwoing link. http://www.answering-islam.org(...)him/trustworthy1.htm


bst rgrds





principe
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On 04-11-2005 18:46 AnisJ wrote:

...

AnisJ Yth
Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature" Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused


In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion.



Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.


yes I know


I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......

I think that Muslims do not claim that Mohammad is the personification of GOD, but simply His messenger. But the fact that in the book of Mary (within the Koran, reference is made to Jezus, Mary AND THE HOLY GHOST, makes me wonder whether Indonesian Muslims can accuse or reject the Holy Trinity when the Koran itself makes reference to it without rejecting it . I invite evrybody to read the follwoing link. http://www.answering-islam.org(...)him/trustworthy1.htm


bst rgrds





AnisJ
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AnisJ
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principe
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principe
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sidia
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 15:18 principe wrote:

...


...
[/quote]



to you I wrote:

In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion

I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.

[/quote] [/quote]

To me , I see no diff. between The God of the O.T and The God of N.T
There is only one God (monotheism)
I think that The God (from O.T) is de the same God of Jesus.(the Father ).
To me is Jesus the Son .
To my logic a Son cannot be the same as the father.
About the Roh Kudus (?) , it is the gift of God to all his childeren .

That is the reason that I think the God of the Jews and The God of the Christians and the God of the Muslim is the same .

Of course I must read the bible carefully .
It is only an opinion , not important enough.




sidia
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 15:18 principe wrote:

...


...
[/quote]



to you I wrote:

In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion

I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.

[/quote] [/quote]

To me , I see no diff. between The God of the O.T and The God of N.T
There is only one God (monotheism)
I think that The God (from O.T) is de the same God of Jesus.(the Father ).
To me is Jesus the Son .
To my logic a Son cannot be the same as the father.
About the Roh Kudus (?) , it is the gift of God to all his childeren .

That is the reason that I think the God of the Jews and The God of the Christians and the God of the Muslim is the same .

Of course I must read the bible carefully .
It is only an opinion , not important enough.




principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 16:07 sidia wrote:

...


to mr Sidia

I[quote] As I said before I agree with your monotheistic view of christianity. But if you were asked to explain the following. "Jesus our Lord" "Mary mother of God" "Tuhan Yesus" , how would you reply ?

I asked around and some would argue that Jezus was GOD on earth. Through the holy Ghost Jezus was empowered with His will. Some would argue that the Trinity is one and the same as water, vapor and ice. Some would say that the Holy Ghost is the love of God and Jezus the will of God on earth....and many more.

This multi explanation and its less than clear and satisfactory meaning (because of its spiritual meaning I think) is often used by Indonesian Muslims and Muslims in general find prove of its polytheistic nature. [/quote]





principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 16:07 sidia wrote:

...


to mr Sidia

I[quote] As I said before I agree with your monotheistic view of christianity. But if you were asked to explain the following. "Jesus our Lord" "Mary mother of God" "Tuhan Yesus" , how would you reply ?

I asked around and some would argue that Jezus was GOD on earth. Through the holy Ghost Jezus was empowered with His will. Some would argue that the Trinity is one and the same as water, vapor and ice. Some would say that the Holy Ghost is the love of God and Jezus the will of God on earth....and many more.

This multi explanation and its less than clear and satisfactory meaning (because of its spiritual meaning I think) is often used by Indonesian Muslims and Muslims in general find prove of its polytheistic nature. [/quote]





sidia
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mr principe ;quote :
If you were asked to explain the foll. Jesus Our lord , Mary mother of God , Tuhan Jesus , how would yr reply.

First , I respect if the christian of a part of them If they believe in it .
I am an outstander .
To me , personal , there is only one .
If Jesus have the same God as ther Jews , then it is for me not logic if the followers of Jesus also say Jesus is God (Our Lord , Tuhan Jesus) .
IF so , you have 2 Gods at least .
Maybe because the greece influence ?

BUT that is not to me to judge .
I only have one God , the same of the Jews and the same as the christians .

To Anis : maybe this is my answer abt yr question (other topic) , the diff. between Mohamedaan , and Christenen.
The moslims are not followers of Mohammed.(not their lord).




sidia
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mr principe ;quote :
If you were asked to explain the foll. Jesus Our lord , Mary mother of God , Tuhan Jesus , how would yr reply.

First , I respect if the christian of a part of them If they believe in it .
I am an outstander .
To me , personal , there is only one .
If Jesus have the same God as ther Jews , then it is for me not logic if the followers of Jesus also say Jesus is God (Our Lord , Tuhan Jesus) .
IF so , you have 2 Gods at least .
Maybe because the greece influence ?

BUT that is not to me to judge .
I only have one God , the same of the Jews and the same as the christians .

To Anis : maybe this is my answer abt yr question (other topic) , the diff. between Mohamedaan , and Christenen.
The moslims are not followers of Mohammed.(not their lord).




searching
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Principe I am back,

Thanks for the lecture. Since I am no researcher, I will try to conclude in a simpler sentences of your points:
This is what I found:


"Deductive reasoning" refers to the process of concluding that something must be true because it is a special case of a general principle that is known to be true. For example, if you know the general principle that the sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees, and you have a particular triangle in mind, you can then conclude that the sum of the angles in your triangle is 180 degrees.
Deductive reasoning is logically valid and it is the fundamental method in which mathematical facts are shown to be true.
"Inductive reasoning" (not to be confused with "mathematical induction" or and "inductive proof", which is something quite different) is the process of reasoning that a general principle is true because the special cases you've seen are true. [For example, if all the people you've ever met from a particular town have been very strange, you might then say "all the residents of this town are strange". That is inductive reasoning: constructing a general principle from special cases. It goes in the opposite direction from deductive reasoning.
b]Inductive reasoning is not logically valid. Just because all the people you happen to have met from a town were strange is no guarantee that all the people there are strange. Therefore, this form of reasoning has no part in a mathematical proof.
However, inductive reasoning does play a part in the discovery of mathematical truths. For example, the ancient geometers looked at triangles and noticed that their angle sums were all 180 degrees. After seeing that every triangle they tried to build, no matter what the shape, had an angle sum of 180 degrees, they would have come to the conclusion that this is something that is true of every triangle. Then they would have looked for a way to prove it using deductive reasoning; that is, deduce it as a consequence of other known general properties of triangles.
In summary, then: inductive reasoning is part of the discovery process whereby the observation of special cases leads one to suspect very strongly (though not know with absolute logical certainty) that some general principle is true. Deductive reasoning, on the other hand, is the method you would use to demonstrate with logical certainty that the principle is true.
Both are necessary parts of mathematical thinking. If you just started with the known properties of triangles and played around with them aimlessly using deductive reasoning, it is unlikely you would discover the fact that the angle sum is always 180 degrees (though if you did happen to discover it that way, you'd know it for certain). However, by noticing that it's true in all the examples you've ever seen, inductive reasoning leads you to suspect that this fact is true. Then, once your suspicions have given you a target and a direction for your deductive reasoning, you construct your rigorous logical proof using deductive reasoning.
The "inductive reasoning" mentioned above is nothing to do with the "principle of induction", which says that if you know something is true for the number 1, and if whenever it is true for one number it is also true for the next number, it is then true for every positive integer. Although this principle is a form of reasoning that gets you to a general principle from some individual cases (which is the reason for the name "induction"), it does so in a precise and logically valid way that is really a form of deductive reasoning if viewed in the correct way. When people refer to an "inductive proof", they generally mean a proof that uses the (logically valid) principle of induction, rather than meaning a form of (logically invalid) inductive reasoning in the sense described above.


well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.

Based on this facts, I wonder, why then you can conclude that the COKER was behind the Soya attacks.
I would love to see how you construct your inductive reasoning based on this. From what I know, since the inductive is not enough to have reasonably right conclusion (because it's from SPECIAL CASES ---> GENERAL ASSUMPTION), then you still need deductive reasoning.


I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.

Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.

Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?


Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So it's your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that.

I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS.

You said:


We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me


But how do I conclude that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION when you wrote like this:


The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.

It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.

NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.

TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.



You sounded like stating the facts to me, that's why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!


And our capacity to analyse


Can't help to agree with that..with our own logic and not only using inductive approach.


Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION


You mean lessen COKER involvement? Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it. Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility?


Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.


Agree with it. That's why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source.



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Principe I am back,

Thanks for the lecture. Since I am no researcher, I will try to conclude in a simpler sentences of your points:
This is what I found:


"Deductive reasoning" refers to the process of concluding that something must be true because it is a special case of a general principle that is known to be true. For example, if you know the general principle that the sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees, and you have a particular triangle in mind, you can then conclude that the sum of the angles in your triangle is 180 degrees.
Deductive reasoning is logically valid and it is the fundamental method in which mathematical facts are shown to be true.
"Inductive reasoning" (not to be confused with "mathematical induction" or and "inductive proof", which is something quite different) is the process of reasoning that a general principle is true because the special cases you've seen are true. [For example, if all the people you've ever met from a particular town have been very strange, you might then say "all the residents of this town are strange". That is inductive reasoning: constructing a general principle from special cases. It goes in the opposite direction from deductive reasoning.
b]Inductive reasoning is not logically valid. Just because all the people you happen to have met from a town were strange is no guarantee that all the people there are strange. Therefore, this form of reasoning has no part in a mathematical proof.
However, inductive reasoning does play a part in the discovery of mathematical truths. For example, the ancient geometers looked at triangles and noticed that their angle sums were all 180 degrees. After seeing that every triangle they tried to build, no matter what the shape, had an angle sum of 180 degrees, they would have come to the conclusion that this is something that is true of every triangle. Then they would have looked for a way to prove it using deductive reasoning; that is, deduce it as a consequence of other known general properties of triangles.
In summary, then: inductive reasoning is part of the discovery process whereby the observation of special cases leads one to suspect very strongly (though not know with absolute logical certainty) that some general principle is true. Deductive reasoning, on the other hand, is the method you would use to demonstrate with logical certainty that the principle is true.
Both are necessary parts of mathematical thinking. If you just started with the known properties of triangles and played around with them aimlessly using deductive reasoning, it is unlikely you would discover the fact that the angle sum is always 180 degrees (though if you did happen to discover it that way, you'd know it for certain). However, by noticing that it's true in all the examples you've ever seen, inductive reasoning leads you to suspect that this fact is true. Then, once your suspicions have given you a target and a direction for your deductive reasoning, you construct your rigorous logical proof using deductive reasoning.
The "inductive reasoning" mentioned above is nothing to do with the "principle of induction", which says that if you know something is true for the number 1, and if whenever it is true for one number it is also true for the next number, it is then true for every positive integer. Although this principle is a form of reasoning that gets you to a general principle from some individual cases (which is the reason for the name "induction"), it does so in a precise and logically valid way that is really a form of deductive reasoning if viewed in the correct way. When people refer to an "inductive proof", they generally mean a proof that uses the (logically valid) principle of induction, rather than meaning a form of (logically invalid) inductive reasoning in the sense described above.


well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.

Based on this facts, I wonder, why then you can conclude that the COKER was behind the Soya attacks.
I would love to see how you construct your inductive reasoning based on this. From what I know, since the inductive is not enough to have reasonably right conclusion (because it's from SPECIAL CASES ---> GENERAL ASSUMPTION), then you still need deductive reasoning.


I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.

Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.

Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?


Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So it's your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that.

I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS.

You said:


We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me


But how do I conclude that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION when you wrote like this:


The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.

When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.

It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.

NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.

TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.



You sounded like stating the facts to me, that's why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!


And our capacity to analyse


Can't help to agree with that..with our own logic and not only using inductive approach.


Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION


You mean lessen COKER involvement? Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it. Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility?


Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.


Agree with it. That's why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source.



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Anis,


I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......


Emoticon: Worship

Principe,

Good that you read www.answeringislam.org as well.

Sidia,

You can ask many things at the site or www.faithfreedom.org







searching
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Anis,


I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......


Emoticon: Worship

Principe,

Good that you read www.answeringislam.org as well.

Sidia,

You can ask many things at the site or www.faithfreedom.org







sidia
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User icon of sidia
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Searcher are you a repeater ?

Is only faithfreedom . com yr source ??
You told me 3 times and also to other people .

Theoritical bla bla is very nice (yr mssg to principe 11.28 ) , but What is yr own opinion ? Yr truth ?
Coba tell it to Sidia with simple words and examples.

(teorie sih boleh , tapi prakteknya mas )




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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Searcher are you a repeater ?

Is only faithfreedom . com yr source ??
You told me 3 times and also to other people .

Theoritical bla bla is very nice (yr mssg to principe 11.28 ) , but What is yr own opinion ? Yr truth ?
Coba tell it to Sidia with simple words and examples.

(teorie sih boleh , tapi prakteknya mas )




AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 07 November 2005 16:13

I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim Emoticon: Confused ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion; I think you are playing 'hide and seek' my friend, you are not tending to have an 'open discussion' like 'Sid'.
In the Bible there is a warning: "He who 'brings' faith wrongly or misinterptreted will be punished in the seventh prosterity, off course on "purpose" ...... so it is our responsibilty to judge Gods words in the right way .....
In the Christian view God is still God, Yesus is viewed as the representation of Gods son and 'Messiah' ( although some Christians say he was a personifacation of God on earth) the 'Holy Spirit' is the assignment to 'bring and inspire' religion, not more not less .......
Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the 'goodies from the badddies' who will sit on Gods right hand .....



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 07 November 2005 16:13

I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim Emoticon: Confused ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion; I think you are playing 'hide and seek' my friend, you are not tending to have an 'open discussion' like 'Sid'.
In the Bible there is a warning: "He who 'brings' faith wrongly or misinterptreted will be punished in the seventh prosterity, off course on "purpose" ...... so it is our responsibilty to judge Gods words in the right way .....
In the Christian view God is still God, Yesus is viewed as the representation of Gods son and 'Messiah' ( although some Christians say he was a personifacation of God on earth) the 'Holy Spirit' is the assignment to 'bring and inspire' religion, not more not less .......
Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the 'goodies from the badddies' who will sit on Gods right hand .....



principe
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[quote] On 07-11-2005 11:28 searching wrote:
Principe I am back,

Hello Searching

Are we exchanging all kinds of versions of deduction and induction ?

[quote]well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.

No not these facts alone. I already offered you an array of links. Take your time reading them all. Some are from political - , social -, strategic analysts like the CGI for instance (I like them very much. I think they do some very professional research). Some columnists in mainstream newspapers and magazines, some are police reports, wittness accounts, some are interviews, some are statements and far more.


[quote]Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So its your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that[/quote].


It is hardly my privilege and I do not think I want to assure you. I already told you that It was my opinion based on different sources (some facts and supporting statements and my capacity to analyze ) by which I came to my own conclusion that FOR ME Coker was defenitely involved in the attack. I already to you that I could be wrong and that you certainly do not have to agree. I wonder what more you want me to say, really.

[quote]I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS[/quote].

Victims are christians and therefore the attackers are Muslims
Verses in the Quran encourage muslims to terrorize non believers and therefore the attackers of Soya were Muslims.

Now you lost it searching. Indeed it sounds very much like your model of deduction.



[quote]You sounded like stating the facts to me, thats why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that ITS YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!
[/quote]

What can I say. Maybe it just takes some accurate reading

[quote]You mean lessen COKER involvement?[/quote]

Yes, typo error, sorry

[quote]Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it.[/quote]


Where did I conclude that Laskar Jihad was behind the Soya attack. So much for accurate reading.

[quote]Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility[/quote]?

see the above

[quote]Agree with it. Thats why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source. [/quote][/quote]


Searching I have no idea what SABILI is. I am not going to repeat to you for the upteenth time what my sources are. And I simply do not know your definition of reliable sources




principe
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[quote] On 07-11-2005 11:28 searching wrote:
Principe I am back,

Hello Searching

Are we exchanging all kinds of versions of deduction and induction ?

[quote]well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.

No not these facts alone. I already offered you an array of links. Take your time reading them all. Some are from political - , social -, strategic analysts like the CGI for instance (I like them very much. I think they do some very professional research). Some columnists in mainstream newspapers and magazines, some are police reports, wittness accounts, some are interviews, some are statements and far more.


[quote]Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So its your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that[/quote].


It is hardly my privilege and I do not think I want to assure you. I already told you that It was my opinion based on different sources (some facts and supporting statements and my capacity to analyze ) by which I came to my own conclusion that FOR ME Coker was defenitely involved in the attack. I already to you that I could be wrong and that you certainly do not have to agree. I wonder what more you want me to say, really.

[quote]I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS[/quote].

Victims are christians and therefore the attackers are Muslims
Verses in the Quran encourage muslims to terrorize non believers and therefore the attackers of Soya were Muslims.

Now you lost it searching. Indeed it sounds very much like your model of deduction.



[quote]You sounded like stating the facts to me, thats why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that ITS YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!
[/quote]

What can I say. Maybe it just takes some accurate reading

[quote]You mean lessen COKER involvement?[/quote]

Yes, typo error, sorry

[quote]Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it.[/quote]


Where did I conclude that Laskar Jihad was behind the Soya attack. So much for accurate reading.

[quote]Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility[/quote]?

see the above

[quote]Agree with it. Thats why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source. [/quote][/quote]


Searching I have no idea what SABILI is. I am not going to repeat to you for the upteenth time what my sources are. And I simply do not know your definition of reliable sources




principe
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[quote][quote] On 07-11-2005 16:13 AnisJ wrote:
I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
[/quote]

I will keep it simple. In Indonesia very often Muslims tend to question the montheisticity of christianity. That is because they do not understand or want to understand the Holy Trinity. They think in terms of God the holy son, God the holy ghost and God himself...sounds like several Gods and thus polytheistic. Is ithis misperception that hard to understand this ?




quote]Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim Emoticon: Confused ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion;[[/quote]

No you do'nt. Who says you are ?



[quote] I think you are playing hide and seek my friend, you are not tending to have an open discussion like Sid.[/quote]

I don't understand. I think I was just offering some mainstream views in Indonesian Muslim society regarding the Holy Trinity

[quote][quote]Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the goodies from the badddies who will sit on Gods right hand ..... [/quote]

Thank you for giving me your christian view about the issue. Wasn't I talking about the Indonesian Muslim view ?



principe
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[quote][quote] On 07-11-2005 16:13 AnisJ wrote:
I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
[/quote]

I will keep it simple. In Indonesia very often Muslims tend to question the montheisticity of christianity. That is because they do not understand or want to understand the Holy Trinity. They think in terms of God the holy son, God the holy ghost and God himself...sounds like several Gods and thus polytheistic. Is ithis misperception that hard to understand this ?




quote]Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim Emoticon: Confused ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion;[[/quote]

No you do'nt. Who says you are ?



[quote] I think you are playing hide and seek my friend, you are not tending to have an open discussion like Sid.[/quote]

I don't understand. I think I was just offering some mainstream views in Indonesian Muslim society regarding the Holy Trinity

[quote][quote]Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the goodies from the badddies who will sit on Gods right hand ..... [/quote]

Thank you for giving me your christian view about the issue. Wasn't I talking about the Indonesian Muslim view ?



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Principe,


No not these facts alone. I already offered you an array of links. Take your time reading them all. Some are from political - , social -, strategic analysts like the CGI for instance (I like them very much. I think they do some very professional research). Some columnists in mainstream newspapers and magazines, some are police reports, wittness accounts, some are interviews, some are statements and far more.


Names and links will be helpful. so far you only gave me links from that maltra. Is it hard for you to state your opinion like a real researcher. Or do you always present your analysis that way?: by saying SOME RESEARCHERS, SOME COMLUMNISTS, SOME PROFESSIONAL RESEARCHERS. Please. You can say GUS DUR, DAI BACHTIAR, and it will be more helpful and clear.


Victims are christians and therefore the attackers are Muslims
Verses in the Quran encourage muslims to terrorize non believers and therefore the attackers of Soya were Muslims.

Now you lost it searching. Indeed it sounds very much like your model of deduction.


Well, my logic is like that. And ok, let's see your logic: THE VICTIMS ARE THE CHRISTIANS AND THE ATTACKERS ARE CHRISTIANS. I believe the readers can decide who has more logic in his head.


What can I say. Maybe it just takes some accurate reading


Accurate reading of what? Of this?


When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess


I dont see any statement: IN MY OPINION or anything that states IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION BASED ON YOUR INDUCTIVE APPROACH. I don't know if I am the one who misread you or you're the one who forgot to state that it's your opinion.


Where did I conclude that Laskar Jihad was behind the Soya attack. So much for accurate reading.


I am the one who state about LASKAR JIHAD. And I wonder that with your great inductive reasoning ability, you don't even calculate the possibility of LASKAR JIHAD who went to Ambon to fight (Remember, that Gus Dur even condemned them).
Your only statement sofar was that The CHRISTIANS COKER WAS BEHIND THE ATTACT TO THE CHRISTIAN VILLAGE (SOYA). Please read my statements carefully.


Searching I have no idea what SABILI is. I am not going to repeat to you for the upteenth time what my sources are. And I simply do not know your definition of reliable sources


If you make a reference, you will put a link to the real reading, not the full website. If you read a book you will find that the reference wil be writen with THE PAGE where the reference is taken. But so far you gave me the full websites and want me to read all of them. Thank you, I have my own job to do than just reading all the sites from A to Z.
I only mention that I WILL ONLY CONSIDER RELIABLE SOURCES, not gossips, speculations, etc. And my last words are only to emphasize this.

I BELIEVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS IN YOUR HAND, because you are the one who stated SOYA ATTACKERS ARE CHRISTIAN GROUP (COKER). So I need to see HOW YOU CONSTRUCT THE CONCLUSION. And please make it clear like this:

(1) I have an information from Kompas...dated......when Dai Bachtiar said......

I believe it will help more to us, the readers to understand you, than your saying about SOME RESEARCHERS, SOME SOURCES, SOME THIS AND THAT.

One thing about research and data is that IT HAS TO BE VERIVIABLE BY OTHER PEOPLE. So far you only succeed in make the readers confused.






searching
User
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Principe,


No not these facts alone. I already offered you an array of links. Take your time reading them all. Some are from political - , social -, strategic analysts like the CGI for instance (I like them very much. I think they do some very professional research). Some columnists in mainstream newspapers and magazines, some are police reports, wittness accounts, some are interviews, some are statements and far more.


Names and links will be helpful. so far you only gave me links from that maltra. Is it hard for you to state your opinion like a real researcher. Or do you always present your analysis that way?: by saying SOME RESEARCHERS, SOME COMLUMNISTS, SOME PROFESSIONAL RESEARCHERS. Please. You can say GUS DUR, DAI BACHTIAR, and it will be more helpful and clear.


Victims are christians and therefore the attackers are Muslims
Verses in the Quran encourage muslims to terrorize non believers and therefore the attackers of Soya were Muslims.

Now you lost it searching. Indeed it sounds very much like your model of deduction.


Well, my logic is like that. And ok, let's see your logic: THE VICTIMS ARE THE CHRISTIANS AND THE ATTACKERS ARE CHRISTIANS. I believe the readers can decide who has more logic in his head.


What can I say. Maybe it just takes some accurate reading


Accurate reading of what? Of this?


When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).

They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess


I dont see any statement: IN MY OPINION or anything that states IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION BASED ON YOUR INDUCTIVE APPROACH. I don't know if I am the one who misread you or you're the one who forgot to state that it's your opinion.


Where did I conclude that Laskar Jihad was behind the Soya attack. So much for accurate reading.


I am the one who state about LASKAR JIHAD. And I wonder that with your great inductive reasoning ability, you don't even calculate the possibility of LASKAR JIHAD who went to Ambon to fight (Remember, that Gus Dur even condemned them).
Your only statement sofar was that The CHRISTIANS COKER WAS BEHIND THE ATTACT TO THE CHRISTIAN VILLAGE (SOYA). Please read my statements carefully.


Searching I have no idea what SABILI is. I am not going to repeat to you for the upteenth time what my sources are. And I simply do not know your definition of reliable sources


If you make a reference, you will put a link to the real reading, not the full website. If you read a book you will find that the reference wil be writen with THE PAGE where the reference is taken. But so far you gave me the full websites and want me to read all of them. Thank you, I have my own job to do than just reading all the sites from A to Z.
I only mention that I WILL ONLY CONSIDER RELIABLE SOURCES, not gossips, speculations, etc. And my last words are only to emphasize this.

I BELIEVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS IN YOUR HAND, because you are the one who stated SOYA ATTACKERS ARE CHRISTIAN GROUP (COKER). So I need to see HOW YOU CONSTRUCT THE CONCLUSION. And please make it clear like this:

(1) I have an information from Kompas...dated......when Dai Bachtiar said......

I believe it will help more to us, the readers to understand you, than your saying about SOME RESEARCHERS, SOME SOURCES, SOME THIS AND THAT.

One thing about research and data is that IT HAS TO BE VERIVIABLE BY OTHER PEOPLE. So far you only succeed in make the readers confused.






Jeroen
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Quite a lot of shouting you got there. Emoticon:



Jeroen
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Quite a lot of shouting you got there. Emoticon:



principe
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AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 08 November 2005 14:49

S.lmat s.mua yth.,

After all these 'talking' we must conclude that two/2 cases(?) are mixed up in
this subject: 'the Coker Gang' the case of: 'the two/2 schoolgirls and, I forgot, christian-Islamatic contriversaries ; if somebody saw more 'cases', silahkan ...
As for the 'Coker Gang' case I want to remark that a very friend of Berty Loupatty, one of the main 'Coker Gang' members, said/stated that he was forced to join the Gang by the army (some say Kopasus), but .... he refused after that his house was contstanly being shot ......
So the 'Coker Gang' was christain, but what about the 'masterminds' ....,
second remark I want to make concerning the 'Soya village'attack is:
'No Moluccan, be it Muslim neither Christain would ever attack this important
village in Moluccan adat ....... this fact showed us, Moluccans, that the 'masterminds' are non-Moluccans ......'
The mosque of Ambon was build on the territory of the raja of Soya, it was given to Muslims although the Soya village was of Roman-Catholic Christian
believe ....
The raja of Soya played a very important role in establishing an oecomene Moluccan style by using 'adat elements' to combine Christians ...... Roman-Catholics and protestants ..... when I was on holiday in the late '90's in the Moluccas I saw a "baileo agama": a Moluccan (adat) custums house; but in this case for religious purposes.
After asking my relatives they explained me that this house was a oecomene
consept plan to join religion, afterward I was informed that it was the idea of the raja of Soya ..... I am sure that he already was planning to invite Moluccan
muslims to join in ...., but then the 'clash' occured, from what we know today ...



AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 08 November 2005 14:49

S.lmat s.mua yth.,

After all these 'talking' we must conclude that two/2 cases(?) are mixed up in
this subject: 'the Coker Gang' the case of: 'the two/2 schoolgirls and, I forgot, christian-Islamatic contriversaries ; if somebody saw more 'cases', silahkan ...
As for the 'Coker Gang' case I want to remark that a very friend of Berty Loupatty, one of the main 'Coker Gang' members, said/stated that he was forced to join the Gang by the army (some say Kopasus), but .... he refused after that his house was contstanly being shot ......
So the 'Coker Gang' was christain, but what about the 'masterminds' ....,
second remark I want to make concerning the 'Soya village'attack is:
'No Moluccan, be it Muslim neither Christain would ever attack this important
village in Moluccan adat ....... this fact showed us, Moluccans, that the 'masterminds' are non-Moluccans ......'
The mosque of Ambon was build on the territory of the raja of Soya, it was given to Muslims although the Soya village was of Roman-Catholic Christian
believe ....
The raja of Soya played a very important role in establishing an oecomene Moluccan style by using 'adat elements' to combine Christians ...... Roman-Catholics and protestants ..... when I was on holiday in the late '90's in the Moluccas I saw a "baileo agama": a Moluccan (adat) custums house; but in this case for religious purposes.
After asking my relatives they explained me that this house was a oecomene
consept plan to join religion, afterward I was informed that it was the idea of the raja of Soya ..... I am sure that he already was planning to invite Moluccan
muslims to join in ...., but then the 'clash' occured, from what we know today ...



searching
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searching
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principe
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.


If so, we can finish this discussion. you may conclude that Coker is behind it, and I conclude the opossite


fair enough



principe
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.


If so, we can finish this discussion. you may conclude that Coker is behind it, and I conclude the opossite


fair enough



AnisJ
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'Pincipe' and 'Searching' yth.,

"Pardon me, this forum does not consist of you two".
"Who are you to tell others what to do ..... ; is this your style to discuss ..... I myself believe in: 'the speech of freedom' ........ !!! Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes!



AnisJ
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'Pincipe' and 'Searching' yth.,

"Pardon me, this forum does not consist of you two".
"Who are you to tell others what to do ..... ; is this your style to discuss ..... I myself believe in: 'the speech of freedom' ........ !!! Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes!



principe
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[quote]"Pardon me, this forum does not consist of you two".
"Who are you to tell others what to do ..... ; is this your style to discuss ..... I myself believe in: the speech of freedom ........ !!! Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes! [/quote][/quote]


I think Searching meant the discussion between me and him about the subject. Am I right searching ? To which I agreed.

I am certainly non telling you or anybody what to do regarding this forum. I think that's Mr Jeroen's prerogative.



principe
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[quote]"Pardon me, this forum does not consist of you two".
"Who are you to tell others what to do ..... ; is this your style to discuss ..... I myself believe in: the speech of freedom ........ !!! Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes! [/quote][/quote]


I think Searching meant the discussion between me and him about the subject. Am I right searching ? To which I agreed.

I am certainly non telling you or anybody what to do regarding this forum. I think that's Mr Jeroen's prerogative.



searching
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(Edited) Posted @ 10 November 2005 03:13

Anis,

I end discussion with Principe about the Soya attack for two main reasons:
1) Principe and I had very different approach concerning the reasoning and in the last statement, he said he revealed how he constructed his reasonings/research only to certain people (like his professors) whom he thinks worth the effort. So there's no way I can ask him to do so, then it's no use to continue the discussion.
2) The Soya attack was a bit OOT (out of topic). This thread is about the cruel beheading of three Christian girls.

But you may continue the discussion with Principe about Soya attack, if you think he will want to continue.



searching
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(Edited) Posted @ 10 November 2005 03:13

Anis,

I end discussion with Principe about the Soya attack for two main reasons:
1) Principe and I had very different approach concerning the reasoning and in the last statement, he said he revealed how he constructed his reasonings/research only to certain people (like his professors) whom he thinks worth the effort. So there's no way I can ask him to do so, then it's no use to continue the discussion.
2) The Soya attack was a bit OOT (out of topic). This thread is about the cruel beheading of three Christian girls.

But you may continue the discussion with Principe about Soya attack, if you think he will want to continue.



sidia
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I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?

Very quiet in this forum , very strange ??
see Also www.antara.co.id/seenws/index.php?id=22132






sidia
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I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?

Very quiet in this forum , very strange ??
see Also www.antara.co.id/seenws/index.php?id=22132






searching
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Sidia,


I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?


I said that it's high probability it's moslems. She might be the unwanted victim. Do you think the Islamic bombers like Azahari never killed moslems? But they choose the place where the majority are not. That's my point of view.



searching
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spacer line
 

Sidia,


I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?


I said that it's high probability it's moslems. She might be the unwanted victim. Do you think the Islamic bombers like Azahari never killed moslems? But they choose the place where the majority are not. That's my point of view.



AnisJ
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On 10-11-2005 08:49 sidia wrote:
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?


"Sid' why should there not be a 'third party' be involved, there are many potentials in INDOnesia ....... I do not have to tell you; at least not ordinary people be it christians nor muslims ......



AnisJ
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On 10-11-2005 08:49 sidia wrote:
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?


"Sid' why should there not be a 'third party' be involved, there are many potentials in INDOnesia ....... I do not have to tell you; at least not ordinary people be it christians nor muslims ......



sidia
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On 10-11-2005 13:05 searching wrote:
Sidia,


...


I said that its high probability its moslems.

She might be the unwanted victim.

Do you think the Islamic bombers like Azahari never killed moslems? But they choose the place where the majority are not.

Thats my point of view.


In a sensitive situation must everybode trying to be careful.
And giving an opinion without prejudice.

Abt Azahari is o.o.t , but I give you answer : everyone who can read and think normal can see that there are also muslim victims.
As you know it is forbidden (it is written ) , that a muslim kill another(innocent) muslim.That is why the other muslim(moderates or not) see their act as a terorist act .And also as a political act .

abt the "unwanted victim " : who is the unwanted ? , the muslim girl or the christian girl. (the 2 poso girls) .

Do you have read the article ? , there are also other (older)articles about the problems in Poso.
(it seems basicly political and economical reason).



sidia
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On 10-11-2005 13:05 searching wrote:
Sidia,


...


I said that its high probability its moslems.

She might be the unwanted victim.

Do you think the Islamic bombers like Azahari never killed moslems? But they choose the place where the majority are not.

Thats my point of view.


In a sensitive situation must everybode trying to be careful.
And giving an opinion without prejudice.

Abt Azahari is o.o.t , but I give you answer : everyone who can read and think normal can see that there are also muslim victims.
As you know it is forbidden (it is written ) , that a muslim kill another(innocent) muslim.That is why the other muslim(moderates or not) see their act as a terorist act .And also as a political act .

abt the "unwanted victim " : who is the unwanted ? , the muslim girl or the christian girl. (the 2 poso girls) .

Do you have read the article ? , there are also other (older)articles about the problems in Poso.
(it seems basicly political and economical reason).



AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 10 November 2005 15:43





AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 10 November 2005 15:43





sidia
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On 10-11-2005 15:24 AnisJ wrote:

...


"Sid why should there not be a third party be involved, there are many potentials in INDOnesia ....... I do not have to tell you; at least not ordinary people be it christians nor muslims ......


Yes , Anis .
Maybe there is a 3rd Party or other combination is also possible , why not.(conspiracy)
But mostly conflict of interest.
And It is stupid and dangerous to stigmatised people .



sidia
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On 10-11-2005 15:24 AnisJ wrote:

...


"Sid why should there not be a third party be involved, there are many potentials in INDOnesia ....... I do not have to tell you; at least not ordinary people be it christians nor muslims ......


Yes , Anis .
Maybe there is a 3rd Party or other combination is also possible , why not.(conspiracy)
But mostly conflict of interest.
And It is stupid and dangerous to stigmatised people .



sidia
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look like lucky luke



sidia
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look like lucky luke



AnisJ
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On 10-11-2005 15:53 sidia wrote:
look like lucky luke


Yes, but I will not shoot my own shade .....



AnisJ
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On 10-11-2005 15:53 sidia wrote:
look like lucky luke


Yes, but I will not shoot my own shade .....



zieleffe
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Emoticon: Angry Hati-Hati only for peapel strong hart Emoticon: Angry
Allen voor kijkers die een sterk hart hebben en die tegen bloed kunnen
http://dog-pundit.blogspot.com(...)hristian-school.html



zieleffe
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Emoticon: Angry Hati-Hati only for peapel strong hart Emoticon: Angry
Allen voor kijkers die een sterk hart hebben en die tegen bloed kunnen
http://dog-pundit.blogspot.com(...)hristian-school.html



zieleffe
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Hati-Hati
Only for people strog heart order not to look Emoticon: Angry

http://dog-pundit.blogspot.com(...)hristian-school.html



zieleffe
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Hati-Hati
Only for people strog heart order not to look Emoticon: Angry

http://dog-pundit.blogspot.com(...)hristian-school.html



searching
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In a sensitive situation must everybode trying to be careful.
And giving an opinion without prejudice.

Abt Azahari is o.o.t , but I give you answer : everyone who can read and think normal can see that there are also muslim victims.
As you know it is forbidden (it is written ) , that a muslim kill another(innocent) muslim.That is why the other muslim(moderates or not) see their act as a terorist act .And also as a political act .

abt the "unwanted victim " : who is the unwanted ? , the muslim girl or the christian girl. (the 2 poso girls) .

Do you have read the article ? , there are also other (older)articles about the problems in Poso.
(it seems basicly political and economical reason).



I read the article and it's a standard statement from someone from Government, to avoid a bigger clash.
It's forbidden to kill Moslems. But how, if one (like Azahari) thinks that the "moslems" he kills are traitors and not true moslems.
Isn't in Islamic History Allah was angry to the moslems who refused to do the 'hijjrah' and even threatened them with hell? (Read Sahih Bukhari about that).
Political problem and economical problem are everywhere. But why is mostly the moslems who blow up riots? See in Egypt, France, Indonesia. It's not the moslems fault, it must be something else. And we have to see the teaching.

By the way, shooting might hit unwanted victims, but beheading is not. You can look at the photos by Zieleffe, and ask yourself.





searching
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In a sensitive situation must everybode trying to be careful.
And giving an opinion without prejudice.

Abt Azahari is o.o.t , but I give you answer : everyone who can read and think normal can see that there are also muslim victims.
As you know it is forbidden (it is written ) , that a muslim kill another(innocent) muslim.That is why the other muslim(moderates or not) see their act as a terorist act .And also as a political act .

abt the "unwanted victim " : who is the unwanted ? , the muslim girl or the christian girl. (the 2 poso girls) .

Do you have read the article ? , there are also other (older)articles about the problems in Poso.
(it seems basicly political and economical reason).



I read the article and it's a standard statement from someone from Government, to avoid a bigger clash.
It's forbidden to kill Moslems. But how, if one (like Azahari) thinks that the "moslems" he kills are traitors and not true moslems.
Isn't in Islamic History Allah was angry to the moslems who refused to do the 'hijjrah' and even threatened them with hell? (Read Sahih Bukhari about that).
Political problem and economical problem are everywhere. But why is mostly the moslems who blow up riots? See in Egypt, France, Indonesia. It's not the moslems fault, it must be something else. And we have to see the teaching.

By the way, shooting might hit unwanted victims, but beheading is not. You can look at the photos by Zieleffe, and ask yourself.





sglange
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To all concern in this forum.
Let it be known that no true Muslim/s will decapitate another person even though he/she is from another religion. From what I can see is that there is another motive for the decapitation of the three innocent Christian girls of which neither me nor others will ever know. Even if the truth is known, it will always be withheld by the authorities concern. What I would like to see is this, that the Islamic (Muslim) and Christian Organisations sit down and discuss ways how to solve the current religious issues in Indonesia rather than await the Central Government in Jakarta of whom I consider not effective in dealing with the current situation in Sulteng.
For us in this forum instead of making a big fuss over who is right and wrong in this issue, maybe a group can be form to to discuss ways on solving this issue thereafter when an agreement has been reached, to approach the various religious organisation/s and submit a proposal. I would like to see Indonesians domicile in their country to play a major part...if this can be done then peace can be achieve. This is for the good of the country and never, never allow your country to disintergrate into bits and pieces which is what has happened to the USSR and Yogoslavia.
Let me make it clear here, I am not an Indonesian but I have a special interest as regards Indonesia cause my family are Indonesians and domicile there. Thank you.



sglange
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To all concern in this forum.
Let it be known that no true Muslim/s will decapitate another person even though he/she is from another religion. From what I can see is that there is another motive for the decapitation of the three innocent Christian girls of which neither me nor others will ever know. Even if the truth is known, it will always be withheld by the authorities concern. What I would like to see is this, that the Islamic (Muslim) and Christian Organisations sit down and discuss ways how to solve the current religious issues in Indonesia rather than await the Central Government in Jakarta of whom I consider not effective in dealing with the current situation in Sulteng.
For us in this forum instead of making a big fuss over who is right and wrong in this issue, maybe a group can be form to to discuss ways on solving this issue thereafter when an agreement has been reached, to approach the various religious organisation/s and submit a proposal. I would like to see Indonesians domicile in their country to play a major part...if this can be done then peace can be achieve. This is for the good of the country and never, never allow your country to disintergrate into bits and pieces which is what has happened to the USSR and Yogoslavia.
Let me make it clear here, I am not an Indonesian but I have a special interest as regards Indonesia cause my family are Indonesians and domicile there. Thank you.



sascha
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On 11-11-2005 08:05 sglange wrote:

This is for the good of the country and never, never allow your country to disintergrate into bits and pieces which is what has happened to the USSR and Yogoslavia.

O.T.:
Why dont let them be if they want to?? if its about national pride and power its stupid, if its because of economical interest its evil. If bavaria would become independent for example, i would happily welcome that. Emoticon: Devil
dont be so damn conservative, if people think they can do better on their own let them try Emoticon: Wink



sascha
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On 11-11-2005 08:05 sglange wrote:

This is for the good of the country and never, never allow your country to disintergrate into bits and pieces which is what has happened to the USSR and Yogoslavia.

O.T.:
Why dont let them be if they want to?? if its about national pride and power its stupid, if its because of economical interest its evil. If bavaria would become independent for example, i would happily welcome that. Emoticon: Devil
dont be so damn conservative, if people think they can do better on their own let them try Emoticon: Wink



AnisJ
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S.lmat s.mua yth.,

If you are interested in de 'Coker Gang' read in Dutch:

www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=18332

In English:

www.infid.be/kopassus_maluku.html



AnisJ
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S.lmat s.mua yth.,

If you are interested in de 'Coker Gang' read in Dutch:

www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=18332

In English:

www.infid.be/kopassus_maluku.html



searching
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searching
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sidia
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Yes ,
No 1 : is Out of Topic. , thus irrelevant

N0 2 : I read the sites .

Only accusing people without evidence .
a. pers.org : april 28 2002 reporting abt unindentified attackers -----
b. jak.post 12 june 2002 reporting : A gang of masked man
c. repoting abt conflict (2001/2002 ? )
d. CNN : may 7 2002 Reporting Thalib (L .J.) = accused att. Soya.
e. Crosswalk : reporting Thalib(L.J) arested & accused iro Soya.

Everyone can read that L.J.(A muslim grp) is accused between 2001 and 2002
But in 2003 they caught the attackers the coker gang .(malra. org etc)

Again you can see and read that if something wrong happened , they always accused and blaming muslims .




sidia
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Yes ,
No 1 : is Out of Topic. , thus irrelevant

N0 2 : I read the sites .

Only accusing people without evidence .
a. pers.org : april 28 2002 reporting abt unindentified attackers -----
b. jak.post 12 june 2002 reporting : A gang of masked man
c. repoting abt conflict (2001/2002 ? )
d. CNN : may 7 2002 Reporting Thalib (L .J.) = accused att. Soya.
e. Crosswalk : reporting Thalib(L.J) arested & accused iro Soya.

Everyone can read that L.J.(A muslim grp) is accused between 2001 and 2002
But in 2003 they caught the attackers the coker gang .(malra. org etc)

Again you can see and read that if something wrong happened , they always accused and blaming muslims .




sascha
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Sidia if u could read u would also read that they didnt blame him for the attack itself but for agitating muslims to attack christians, whether it was muslims or not that attacked soya doesnt matter in that case. Stop playing a fool and defend someone who is surely not worth it. Not all muslims are always guilty but some are can be blamed.



sascha
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Sidia if u could read u would also read that they didnt blame him for the attack itself but for agitating muslims to attack christians, whether it was muslims or not that attacked soya doesnt matter in that case. Stop playing a fool and defend someone who is surely not worth it. Not all muslims are always guilty but some are can be blamed.



tukad ganga
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Its not relevant whether your a Muslim or Christian,to kill these children is against all morality,I saw their pictures on a very weird Internet site,and it was a schock to see the head of one girl totaly off from her body,as a human being not matter what kind of religion its against human kind..........



tukad ganga
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Its not relevant whether your a Muslim or Christian,to kill these children is against all morality,I saw their pictures on a very weird Internet site,and it was a schock to see the head of one girl totaly off from her body,as a human being not matter what kind of religion its against human kind..........



sidia
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Sascha ,

I dont say that the articles only blaming A persoon from the J.I.
It is 5 reports about the attacks of christians and church.
(Some) People are thinking that the potential perpretators must be J.I. linked grps.Because the victims are christians.(sound familiar to me that kind of logic , of course it is not my logic).
That is also why the police are investigating the J.I . man .Their job.
That hapened in the period to 2002.

In 2003 they caught the perpretator(s) the so called Coker gang.
And I give only my opinion about above points , and I have from the beginning in this topic my objection if some one have already an opinion and judging moslims.Without evidence.I say premature shouting.
In case of the 3 girls they dont have jet the perpetrators .And if they have caught they must also seek for evidence , and if they can find , then they must ask what the reason is that the perpetrators are kill ing people .
Political reason, economical or because of faith ? .
Of course it is always possible that terorist maybe have the islam as faith.
There is a great probabilty because the inhabitants of that country is almost 90% muslim.

And again try to respect the rules of discussion.
If you dont agree with my opinion than you must try to give yr opposite opinion.
And not only saying that yr opponent in discussion is playing fool.
And who is defending whom ???.

Please Try to discuss properly .





sidia
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Sascha ,

I dont say that the articles only blaming A persoon from the J.I.
It is 5 reports about the attacks of christians and church.
(Some) People are thinking that the potential perpretators must be J.I. linked grps.Because the victims are christians.(sound familiar to me that kind of logic , of course it is not my logic).
That is also why the police are investigating the J.I . man .Their job.
That hapened in the period to 2002.

In 2003 they caught the perpretator(s) the so called Coker gang.
And I give only my opinion about above points , and I have from the beginning in this topic my objection if some one have already an opinion and judging moslims.Without evidence.I say premature shouting.
In case of the 3 girls they dont have jet the perpetrators .And if they have caught they must also seek for evidence , and if they can find , then they must ask what the reason is that the perpetrators are kill ing people .
Political reason, economical or because of faith ? .
Of course it is always possible that terorist maybe have the islam as faith.
There is a great probabilty because the inhabitants of that country is almost 90% muslim.

And again try to respect the rules of discussion.
If you dont agree with my opinion than you must try to give yr opposite opinion.
And not only saying that yr opponent in discussion is playing fool.
And who is defending whom ???.

Please Try to discuss properly .





sidia
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Sorry ,
correction , not the J.I but the L.J.

Tukad G, I agree.
Murder is murder , and in this case (3grls) is also barbaric.



sidia
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Sorry ,
correction , not the J.I but the L.J.

Tukad G, I agree.
Murder is murder , and in this case (3grls) is also barbaric.



sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 15 November 2005 20:38

"In an extract of a tape recording of Thalib's speech played by police to reporters, the purported voice of Thalib could be heard saying: "Prepare the bombs which we have, prepare ammunitions for us to vomit out from the mouth of the weapons which we possess.""
That are this guys words. Maybe they were not responsible for Soya massacre but it was not the only clash happening. Sure people will point their finger on such militia. Still i see no need to defend such a fellow muslim.
-edited-finally found some good complete read on the topic-edited-
True that Searching was providing mainly christian sides colored in their preferable direction.




sascha
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(Edited) Posted @ 15 November 2005 20:38

"In an extract of a tape recording of Thalib's speech played by police to reporters, the purported voice of Thalib could be heard saying: "Prepare the bombs which we have, prepare ammunitions for us to vomit out from the mouth of the weapons which we possess.""
That are this guys words. Maybe they were not responsible for Soya massacre but it was not the only clash happening. Sure people will point their finger on such militia. Still i see no need to defend such a fellow muslim.
-edited-finally found some good complete read on the topic-edited-
True that Searching was providing mainly christian sides colored in their preferable direction.




sidia
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On 15-11-2005 20:38 sascha wrote:


Still i see no need to defend such a fellow muslim.
-edited-finally found some good complete read on the topic-edited-

True that Searching was providing mainly christian sides colored in their preferable direction.

Sascha ,
thank God you are now trying to discuss about some points and also
give yr opinion.

My comment :
a. In this topic and in this forum I cannot find one person who defending that kind of guys .No one. Maybe in another forum of their own friends .
But not in this forum.Btw Who is defending him ?? .
Can you give an example or a quote ??.

b. I dont care IF searcher ( only ) providing some coloured sites , that is his style of discussion . And it is only his own truth.
Everybody can read it , and sure they have also an opinion about it.









sidia
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On 15-11-2005 20:38 sascha wrote:


Still i see no need to defend such a fellow muslim.
-edited-finally found some good complete read on the topic-edited-

True that Searching was providing mainly christian sides colored in their preferable direction.

Sascha ,
thank God you are now trying to discuss about some points and also
give yr opinion.

My comment :
a. In this topic and in this forum I cannot find one person who defending that kind of guys .No one. Maybe in another forum of their own friends .
But not in this forum.Btw Who is defending him ?? .
Can you give an example or a quote ??.

b. I dont care IF searcher ( only ) providing some coloured sites , that is his style of discussion . And it is only his own truth.
Everybody can read it , and sure they have also an opinion about it.









searching
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Sidia,

I just want to prove my case that Laskar Jihad was very suspicious. And I don't wish to prolong things about Soya, because this is irrelevant to the thread title.

If I am not mistaken I post also the news from CNN. Well, I don't know, but you may believe that maltra than CNN. That's your personal choice, I will not force you anyway. It's a free world, where everyone can freely think without opression.



searching
User
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Sidia,

I just want to prove my case that Laskar Jihad was very suspicious. And I don't wish to prolong things about Soya, because this is irrelevant to the thread title.

If I am not mistaken I post also the news from CNN. Well, I don't know, but you may believe that maltra than CNN. That's your personal choice, I will not force you anyway. It's a free world, where everyone can freely think without opression.



sidia
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On 16-11-2005 09:47 searching wrote:
Sidia,

I just want to prove my case that Laskar Jihad was very suspicious.

If I am not mistaken I post also the news from CNN. Well, I dont know, but you may believe that maltra than CNN.

Thats your personal choice, I will not force you anyway. Its a free world, where everyone can freely think without opression.


Searcher,
a. very suspicous is NOT the same as guilty by evidence or law.

b. I have never say that I believe site (source) A or Site B .
I am only telling that there are always 2 side of a medallion.
And try to get more information from several sites .
Not only the "friendly " sites but also the opposite sites.

c. Of course it is a free world , but people must try to be honest (neutral) and if possible not without prejudice.
In this case we must wait if they can caught somebody and the evidence.
And not from the first hour pointing to a certain group .(premature and without evidence)
In my opinion such people are spreading not friendly feelings among people.

If sidia broke a law , what is the "status" of sidia , a "naughty " christian ( or naughty muslim ) , or a "naughty " individual.?



sidia
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On 16-11-2005 09:47 searching wrote:
Sidia,

I just want to prove my case that Laskar Jihad was very suspicious.

If I am not mistaken I post also the news from CNN. Well, I dont know, but you may believe that maltra than CNN.

Thats your personal choice, I will not force you anyway. Its a free world, where everyone can freely think without opression.


Searcher,
a. very suspicous is NOT the same as guilty by evidence or law.

b. I have never say that I believe site (source) A or Site B .
I am only telling that there are always 2 side of a medallion.
And try to get more information from several sites .
Not only the "friendly " sites but also the opposite sites.

c. Of course it is a free world , but people must try to be honest (neutral) and if possible not without prejudice.
In this case we must wait if they can caught somebody and the evidence.
And not from the first hour pointing to a certain group .(premature and without evidence)
In my opinion such people are spreading not friendly feelings among people.

If sidia broke a law , what is the "status" of sidia , a "naughty " christian ( or naughty muslim ) , or a "naughty " individual.?



searching
User
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Sidia,

If you do something criminal, and you keep silent, of course everyone will point at you.
But if you do something criminal, and you scream "Allahu Akbar", or "I do that according to Islam", or "I am the defender of my faith!", don't you think everyone needs to see also about the ideology/the teaching behind you?




searching
User
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Sidia,

If you do something criminal, and you keep silent, of course everyone will point at you.
But if you do something criminal, and you scream "Allahu Akbar", or "I do that according to Islam", or "I am the defender of my faith!", don't you think everyone needs to see also about the ideology/the teaching behind you?




sidia
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Searcher ,

there is diff. between an individual , a terorist and a "good" muslim.
Also people with hidden agenda .
See also the Fatwa of MUI .



sidia
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Searcher ,

there is diff. between an individual , a terorist and a "good" muslim.
Also people with hidden agenda .
See also the Fatwa of MUI .



Tikus
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On 10-11-2005 08:49 sidia wrote:
I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?

Very quiet in this forum , very strange ??
see Also www.antara.co.id/seenws/index.php?id=22132




You can see at this link who are blamed for the riots in 2000, namely 3 christians. Is this curious???? Emoticon: Confused :
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4635





Tikus
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On 10-11-2005 08:49 sidia wrote:
I wonder that some people in this forum" in this topic always pointing to muslim if there are something wrong happened.
Why not a neutral opinion : A terorist attact and and the perpetrator(s) is unknown .
Yes , within 1-2 hours blaming , judging the (muslim) terorist.
According the logic of someone and maybe some people here , the terorist /perpetrator must be muslim , because the victims are christian.
Without evidence etc etc. In my opinion to soon , premature etc.
We must wait what the reason is , from agama , politic or conflict of interest .

If you read another topic , also regarding Poso , see : Two Poso students shot ----- ., you can read that the 2 victims are a muslim and a christian girls.

WHO is now the potential perpetrators ? A muslim , A christian , A third party ?

Very quiet in this forum , very strange ??
see Also www.antara.co.id/seenws/index.php?id=22132




You can see at this link who are blamed for the riots in 2000, namely 3 christians. Is this curious???? Emoticon: Confused :
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4635





sidia
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On 18-11-2005 23:42 Tikus wrote:

...


You can see at this link who are blamed for the riots in 2000, namely 3 christians. Is this curious???? Emoticon: Confused :
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4635



Why curious . ??
They are sentenced for 2 times.
According the law.
Like several muslim terorist with death penalty .

and I am sure if they can caucht someone in the case of 3 pos grls , they will punish by law. Muslim or christian or what ever .
It is the invidual , de terorist who get the death penalty.
see also the fatwa of MUI about terorism and suicide attack.

About the article it is maybe relevant because from the beginning there are people saying the perpetrator are muslim . But the evidence learn that they are not .



sidia
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On 18-11-2005 23:42 Tikus wrote:

...


You can see at this link who are blamed for the riots in 2000, namely 3 christians. Is this curious???? Emoticon: Confused :
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4635



Why curious . ??
They are sentenced for 2 times.
According the law.
Like several muslim terorist with death penalty .

and I am sure if they can caucht someone in the case of 3 pos grls , they will punish by law. Muslim or christian or what ever .
It is the invidual , de terorist who get the death penalty.
see also the fatwa of MUI about terorism and suicide attack.

About the article it is maybe relevant because from the beginning there are people saying the perpetrator are muslim . But the evidence learn that they are not .



Greeneyzze
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Hello,
This is my first time visiting this forum and, I'm not going to even attempt to deal with any of the political/cultural situations in Indonesia. But as a devout Christian from the Western world (USA), I feel absolutely compelled to say something about Christians in general. I've seen on the news (both local and worldwide) reports of Christians being accused of butchering, raping, etc. And it disturbs me greatly for those people who are not Christians and/or those who are trying to understand what Christianity is. The truth is that if someone is truly a Christian they "wouldn't " be butchering, raping, etc. under any circumstances ever. I know there are a lot of people who go to Christian churches and call themselves Christians, but I ask you to consider this. I could stand in a garage all day and it still wouldn't make me a car. In the same way people can go into a church all day long and it doesn't make them a Christian. If someone professes to know Jesus Christ as their Messiah (which is what Christianity is) then they should be living lives as close to being Christ-like as they can. And that means living a life of love and compassion, loving other people the same way you want to be loved. Many, many hideous things have been done over the last 2000 years in the name of Jesus. The fact is they have nothing at all to do with Jesus. Sadly, the people who get hurt may not know that and believe on some level that the ugly behavior has something to do with Christ, when actually it's just evil being perpetrated by evil people.

Regarding the beheading of those three young girls, my heart aches for what they must have endured, regardless of who did the killing. I don't even know them but my heart mourns for them. They were somebody's daughter, somebody's sister, somebody's friend. Certainly they didn't deserve what was done to them. My sympathies go out to their loved ones. As a mom I can't even begin to imagine the agony their family members must be going through. And their murders have nothing to do with God, but it has everything to do with Godlessness. I do hope they're caught and brought to justice. It makes me very grateful to live where I do. I pray for Peace in your country.



Greeneyzze
User
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Hello,
This is my first time visiting this forum and, I'm not going to even attempt to deal with any of the political/cultural situations in Indonesia. But as a devout Christian from the Western world (USA), I feel absolutely compelled to say something about Christians in general. I've seen on the news (both local and worldwide) reports of Christians being accused of butchering, raping, etc. And it disturbs me greatly for those people who are not Christians and/or those who are trying to understand what Christianity is. The truth is that if someone is truly a Christian they "wouldn't " be butchering, raping, etc. under any circumstances ever. I know there are a lot of people who go to Christian churches and call themselves Christians, but I ask you to consider this. I could stand in a garage all day and it still wouldn't make me a car. In the same way people can go into a church all day long and it doesn't make them a Christian. If someone professes to know Jesus Christ as their Messiah (which is what Christianity is) then they should be living lives as close to being Christ-like as they can. And that means living a life of love and compassion, loving other people the same way you want to be loved. Many, many hideous things have been done over the last 2000 years in the name of Jesus. The fact is they have nothing at all to do with Jesus. Sadly, the people who get hurt may not know that and believe on some level that the ugly behavior has something to do with Christ, when actually it's just evil being perpetrated by evil people.

Regarding the beheading of those three young girls, my heart aches for what they must have endured, regardless of who did the killing. I don't even know them but my heart mourns for them. They were somebody's daughter, somebody's sister, somebody's friend. Certainly they didn't deserve what was done to them. My sympathies go out to their loved ones. As a mom I can't even begin to imagine the agony their family members must be going through. And their murders have nothing to do with God, but it has everything to do with Godlessness. I do hope they're caught and brought to justice. It makes me very grateful to live where I do. I pray for Peace in your country.



sidia
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On 19-11-2005 06:12 Greeneyzze wrote:


a. as a devout I know there are a lot of people who go to Christian churches and call themselves Christians, but I ask you to consider this. I could stand in a garage all day and it still wouldnt make me a car. In the same way people can go into a church all day long and it doesnt make them a Christian. If someone professes to know Jesus Christ as their Messiah (which is what b. Christianity is) then they should be living lives as close to being Christ-like as they can.

b. actually its just evil being perpetrated by evil people.

c. I pray for Peace in your country.


Dear Sister ,

I can recognised a true believer in you , a christian who try to lives
and be guided by Jezus.
Because you are also no blaming or accusing people .
(luc 6. 41-42)

May I borrow yr message and change 3 words in yr message namely the word christian in muslim , church in mosque and Jezus in Islam.

b. Yes , there are some politician , so called leaders with hidden agenda.
Thanks to them , people are fighting with other people , even killing.

c.We must pray for our safety , for our brother and sisters , the childeren of God.
Because it is not easy to ask people, the victims to accept unjustice.
Despite Luc 6 . 27-30.
But we must try.

A (muslim) brother.



sidia
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On 19-11-2005 06:12 Greeneyzze wrote:


a. as a devout I know there are a lot of people who go to Christian churches and call themselves Christians, but I ask you to consider this. I could stand in a garage all day and it still wouldnt make me a car. In the same way people can go into a church all day long and it doesnt make them a Christian. If someone professes to know Jesus Christ as their Messiah (which is what b. Christianity is) then they should be living lives as close to being Christ-like as they can.

b. actually its just evil being perpetrated by evil people.

c. I pray for Peace in your country.


Dear Sister ,

I can recognised a true believer in you , a christian who try to lives
and be guided by Jezus.
Because you are also no blaming or accusing people .
(luc 6. 41-42)

May I borrow yr message and change 3 words in yr message namely the word christian in muslim , church in mosque and Jezus in Islam.

b. Yes , there are some politician , so called leaders with hidden agenda.
Thanks to them , people are fighting with other people , even killing.

c.We must pray for our safety , for our brother and sisters , the childeren of God.
Because it is not easy to ask people, the victims to accept unjustice.
Despite Luc 6 . 27-30.
But we must try.

A (muslim) brother.



Greeneyzze
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Yes, Sidia,
You may use my message and I will pray right now that God will use it in whatever way that He chooses to speak truth and love into whoever hears it.
In His Grace,
Greeneyzze



Greeneyzze
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Yes, Sidia,
You may use my message and I will pray right now that God will use it in whatever way that He chooses to speak truth and love into whoever hears it.
In His Grace,
Greeneyzze



searching
User
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Greeneyzze,


But as a devout Christian from the Western world (USA)


Please differentiate devotion with 'dhimmitude'. To me you stil apply to the "luke warm" term.


Christians being accused of butchering, raping, etc


Do they scream "This is for Jesus" or "How Great God is" or start quoting Bible? If they do and the quotation is correcly stated, we need to ban Bible as well.


Regarding the beheading of those three young girls, my heart aches for what they must have endured, regardless of who did the killing. I don't even know them but my heart mourns for them.


I suggest you try to mourn for them without being politically correct, sis.


I do hope they're caught and brought to justice. It makes me very grateful to live where I do. I pray for Peace in your country.


If everybody in your country behaves like you do, please pray harder, because it will not take long for Sharia Law to be applied (to please them), Moslems demand here and there, Moslems threaten here and there, terrorizing everywhere.
Just pray that it will not happen in Winter, as you holy book said.

Sidia,


May I borrow yr message and change 3 words in yr message namely the word christian in muslim , church in mosque and Jezus in Islam.


Are you sure? Have you followed up the news about the terrorists in Haya Village? The capture of Azahari and what they intention are?




searching
User
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Greeneyzze,


But as a devout Christian from the Western world (USA)


Please differentiate devotion with 'dhimmitude'. To me you stil apply to the "luke warm" term.


Christians being accused of butchering, raping, etc


Do they scream "This is for Jesus" or "How Great God is" or start quoting Bible? If they do and the quotation is correcly stated, we need to ban Bible as well.


Regarding the beheading of those three young girls, my heart aches for what they must have endured, regardless of who did the killing. I don't even know them but my heart mourns for them.


I suggest you try to mourn for them without being politically correct, sis.


I do hope they're caught and brought to justice. It makes me very grateful to live where I do. I pray for Peace in your country.


If everybody in your country behaves like you do, please pray harder, because it will not take long for Sharia Law to be applied (to please them), Moslems demand here and there, Moslems threaten here and there, terrorizing everywhere.
Just pray that it will not happen in Winter, as you holy book said.

Sidia,


May I borrow yr message and change 3 words in yr message namely the word christian in muslim , church in mosque and Jezus in Islam.


Are you sure? Have you followed up the news about the terrorists in Haya Village? The capture of Azahari and what they intention are?




AnisJ
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Principe yth.,

'What is your comment, on the theory that 'centralist favoured elite in Jakarta' misuse religious conflicts to increase 'Jakarta influence' ???
The reason is that in this way the army is also able to come back 'in control' again, for instance ....... !!!



AnisJ
User
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Principe yth.,

'What is your comment, on the theory that 'centralist favoured elite in Jakarta' misuse religious conflicts to increase 'Jakarta influence' ???
The reason is that in this way the army is also able to come back 'in control' again, for instance ....... !!!



trombol
User
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Dear People,

If you really want to help the children from Poso,pleas be generous and
give money for a children home and a school ,which will be build in Amurang.
For those who are willing to support this project,let me know.,I will be
pleased to give you more info.
mbol



trombol
User
spacer line
 

Dear People,

If you really want to help the children from Poso,pleas be generous and
give money for a children home and a school ,which will be build in Amurang.
For those who are willing to support this project,let me know.,I will be
pleased to give you more info.
mbol



johny251976
User
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Dear All especially Mbol,

Tell me what we can do to help those repressed people in Poso.

With Kind Regards,

WJ



johny251976
User
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Dear All especially Mbol,

Tell me what we can do to help those repressed people in Poso.

With Kind Regards,

WJ



trombol
User
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Johny,
How are things going lately.Long time no see.
If you want to have the bank account nr,please let me know.
My departure for Jakarta will be tomorrow so you will
receive my reply next friday.
mbol



trombol
User
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Johny,
How are things going lately.Long time no see.
If you want to have the bank account nr,please let me know.
My departure for Jakarta will be tomorrow so you will
receive my reply next friday.
mbol



Jeroen
Administrator
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Yeah, why don't you give the bank-account number right away, so people can send money to something they don't have any knowlegde about? Emoticon: Very funny



Jeroen
Administrator
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Yeah, why don't you give the bank-account number right away, so people can send money to something they don't have any knowlegde about? Emoticon: Very funny



AnisJ
User
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To Greeneyzze (yth.,),

If this is of any comfort: Habbakkuk (1,2-4)
(1,5-11)
(1,12-17)
(2,1-4)
(2,5-17)
(2,18-20)
from: www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?m=(...)mp;set=3&lang=en



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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To Greeneyzze (yth.,),

If this is of any comfort: Habbakkuk (1,2-4)
(1,5-11)
(1,12-17)
(2,1-4)
(2,5-17)
(2,18-20)
from: www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?m=(...)mp;set=3&lang=en



trombol
User
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On 12-12-2005 08:44 johny251976 wrote:
Dear All especially Mbol,

Tell me what we can do to help those repressed people in Poso.

With Kind Regards,

WJ
Hello Johny,

The account nr is 67530 in the name of Foundation Sulawesi Poso

Best Regards

mbol

PS.

attn of webmaster

I know,I know people in the west are used to get info ,the same minute..
Sorry I am not from the west.



trombol
User
spacer line
 


On 12-12-2005 08:44 johny251976 wrote:
Dear All especially Mbol,

Tell me what we can do to help those repressed people in Poso.

With Kind Regards,

WJ
Hello Johny,

The account nr is 67530 in the name of Foundation Sulawesi Poso

Best Regards

mbol

PS.

attn of webmaster

I know,I know people in the west are used to get info ,the same minute..
Sorry I am not from the west.



Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 

I'm with one leg outside the west now, so I'm someone adapted not to get information instantly, but now I only know the bank account number and nothing else. Emoticon: Smile It looks like something that was just recently on the Dutch show ' Opgelicht'.



Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 

I'm with one leg outside the west now, so I'm someone adapted not to get information instantly, but now I only know the bank account number and nothing else. Emoticon: Smile It looks like something that was just recently on the Dutch show ' Opgelicht'.



trombol
User
spacer line
 


On 15-12-2005 18:14 Jeroen wrote:
Im with one leg outside the west now, so Im someone adapted not to get information instantly, but now I only know the bank account number and nothing else. Emoticon: Smile It looks like something that was just recently on the Dutch show Opgelicht.


I fully agree with you.
Life is hard these days
but ,if I may say,you really are a funny guy. Emoticon: Yes!
nice talking to you
bye
mbol
Emoticon: Laugh out loud



trombol
User
spacer line
 


On 15-12-2005 18:14 Jeroen wrote:
Im with one leg outside the west now, so Im someone adapted not to get information instantly, but now I only know the bank account number and nothing else. Emoticon: Smile It looks like something that was just recently on the Dutch show Opgelicht.


I fully agree with you.
Life is hard these days
but ,if I may say,you really are a funny guy. Emoticon: Yes!
nice talking to you
bye
mbol
Emoticon: Laugh out loud



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 April 2006 15:50


On 08-11-2005 14:49 AnisJ wrote:
S.lmat s.mua yth.,

After all these talking we must conclude that two/2 cases(?) are mixed up in
this subject: the Coker Gang the case of: the two/2 schoolgirls and, I forgot, christian-Islamatic contriversaries ; if somebody saw more cases, silahkan ...
As for the Coker Gang case I want to remark that a very friend of Berty Loupatty, one of the main Coker Gang members, said/stated that he was forced to join the Gang by the army (some say Kopasus), but .... he refused after that his house was contstanly being shot ......
So the Coker Gang was christain, but what about the masterminds ....,
second remark I want to make concerning the Soya villageattack is:
No Moluccan, be it Muslim neither Christain would ever attack this important
village in Moluccan adat ....... this fact showed us, Moluccans, that the masterminds are non-Moluccans ......
The mosque of Ambon was build on the territory of the raja of Soya, it was given to Muslims although the Soya village was of Roman-Catholic Christian
believe ....
The raja of Soya played a very important role in establishing an oecomene Moluccan style by using adat elements to combine Christians ...... Roman-Catholics and protestants ..... when I was on holiday in the late 90s in the Moluccas I saw a "baileo agama": a Moluccan (adat) custums house; but in this case for religious purposes.
After asking my relatives they explained me that this house was a oecomene
consept plan to join religion, afterward I was informed that it was the idea of the raja of Soya ..... I am sure that he already was planning to invite Moluccan
muslims to join in ...., but then the clash occured, from what we know today ...


To read more about the Soya story 'silahkan' read:

www.pesulimahistory.com/history_body.html



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 April 2006 15:50


On 08-11-2005 14:49 AnisJ wrote:
S.lmat s.mua yth.,

After all these talking we must conclude that two/2 cases(?) are mixed up in
this subject: the Coker Gang the case of: the two/2 schoolgirls and, I forgot, christian-Islamatic contriversaries ; if somebody saw more cases, silahkan ...
As for the Coker Gang case I want to remark that a very friend of Berty Loupatty, one of the main Coker Gang members, said/stated that he was forced to join the Gang by the army (some say Kopasus), but .... he refused after that his house was contstanly being shot ......
So the Coker Gang was christain, but what about the masterminds ....,
second remark I want to make concerning the Soya villageattack is:
No Moluccan, be it Muslim neither Christain would ever attack this important
village in Moluccan adat ....... this fact showed us, Moluccans, that the masterminds are non-Moluccans ......
The mosque of Ambon was build on the territory of the raja of Soya, it was given to Muslims although the Soya village was of Roman-Catholic Christian
believe ....
The raja of Soya played a very important role in establishing an oecomene Moluccan style by using adat elements to combine Christians ...... Roman-Catholics and protestants ..... when I was on holiday in the late 90s in the Moluccas I saw a "baileo agama": a Moluccan (adat) custums house; but in this case for religious purposes.
After asking my relatives they explained me that this house was a oecomene
consept plan to join religion, afterward I was informed that it was the idea of the raja of Soya ..... I am sure that he already was planning to invite Moluccan
muslims to join in ...., but then the clash occured, from what we know today ...


To read more about the Soya story 'silahkan' read:

www.pesulimahistory.com/history_body.html



alfred
User
User icon of alfred
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Abhorred and stupified by the extremely violent crime against three girls let us realise for a few moments how sad this all must be for their parents, family and friends. Maybe we should feel somehow beheaded ourselves, and,having losed our heads, very likely are not talking in the wisest of all possible moods.

I grieve over this Sulawesi drama that relates in one way or another to every citizen of this globalized world.



alfred
User
User icon of alfred
spacer line
 

Abhorred and stupified by the extremely violent crime against three girls let us realise for a few moments how sad this all must be for their parents, family and friends. Maybe we should feel somehow beheaded ourselves, and,having losed our heads, very likely are not talking in the wisest of all possible moods.

I grieve over this Sulawesi drama that relates in one way or another to every citizen of this globalized world.



londoh
User
User icon of londoh
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Amin Emoticon: I love it



londoh
User
User icon of londoh
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Amin Emoticon: I love it



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 28 April 2006 12:28





AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 28 April 2006 12:28





kathryn pollard
User
spacer line
 

The people of Indonesia need to wake up themselves. They need to fathom the could be serious consequences of their vulnerabilities.

The murder of the three children could have been a wake up call. I first wrote to this forum on the topic on Nov 10 2005.


Politically Correct Control Freaks, (PCCF) from across the globe are worming their way into places on the ground and in high places everywhere.
"Too easy" they say when they move to disrupt communities in places like Indonesia.

I agree with Sidia who wrote that "It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidence" regarding the cruel murder of the 3 school children in Sulawesi.

The PCCF who seek to divide in order to conquer move in many roles and religions. They may even have no religion at all. They may be business entrepreneurs or other government's "charities".
They will do whatever it takes to turn people against their fellow citizens.
Would they behead Christian children or get gullible Muslims to do their deeds?
Yes I would say they would.




kathryn pollard
User
spacer line
 

The people of Indonesia need to wake up themselves. They need to fathom the could be serious consequences of their vulnerabilities.

The murder of the three children could have been a wake up call. I first wrote to this forum on the topic on Nov 10 2005.


Politically Correct Control Freaks, (PCCF) from across the globe are worming their way into places on the ground and in high places everywhere.
"Too easy" they say when they move to disrupt communities in places like Indonesia.

I agree with Sidia who wrote that "It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidence" regarding the cruel murder of the 3 school children in Sulawesi.

The PCCF who seek to divide in order to conquer move in many roles and religions. They may even have no religion at all. They may be business entrepreneurs or other government's "charities".
They will do whatever it takes to turn people against their fellow citizens.
Would they behead Christian children or get gullible Muslims to do their deeds?
Yes I would say they would.




123jon
User
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 29 May 2006 17:03

= edit: go away =



123jon
User
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 29 May 2006 17:03

= edit: go away =



dutchguy1000
User
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 29 May 2006 17:24


On 29-05-2006 17:03 123jon wrote:

= edit: edit on reaction =
.


idiot, if that where true, the whole world would have been blown away by now.....




dutchguy1000
User
spacer line
 
(Moderated) Posted @ 29 May 2006 17:24


On 29-05-2006 17:03 123jon wrote:

= edit: edit on reaction =
.


idiot, if that where true, the whole world would have been blown away by now.....




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