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JAKARTA - Three Christian teenage girls were beheaded Saturday in the latest attack against non-Muslims in the troubled Indonesian province of Central Sulawesi, police said. The three high school students were found with their heads severed early Saturday in the sectarian-divided town of Poso, said provincial police spokesman Rais Adam. The girls were believed to have been murdered while they were walking to school, Adam said.
He said two of the victims' heads were found near a police post while the third was discovered outside a local Christian church in Poso. "We are still waiting for results from investigation in the field. We are still trying to determine whether this case is religiously-motivated or not," he told AFP. A policewoman on duty in Poso confirmed to AFP that the triple murder had taken place and that the killings were being investigated.
Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, but Central Sulawesi has a roughly equal number of Muslims and Christians. The province was the scene of a bloody sectarian war in 2001-2002 that killed around 1,000 people from both communities. A government-mediated truce succeeded in ending the conflict in early 2002, but there have since been a series of bomb attacks and assassinations of Christians. These included a blast at a market in Poso, a predominantly Christian town, that killed 22 people in May.
Christian leaders have repeatedly accused the authorities in Jakarta of not doing enough to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.
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Absolutely horrible. Why is it so difficult for certain Islamic groups to respect and tolerate people with other beliefs and another way of life? What can the world do to prevent Indonesia becoming another Afghanistan or Saoudi Arabia in the future?
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Absolutely horrible. Why is it so difficult for certain Islamic groups to respect and tolerate people with other beliefs and another way of life? What can the world do to prevent Indonesia becoming another Afghanistan or Saoudi Arabia in the future?
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bloody barbaric bastards. i wished they would realize or being made realize how wrong they did, and then live with the guilt of taking 3 human lifes.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.
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bloody barbaric bastards. i wished they would realize or being made realize how wrong they did, and then live with the guilt of taking 3 human lifes.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.
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Kiwimave :
Yes it is horrible .
Apparently you have some Inside Information ??.
Because without evidence you are blaming a certain Islamic group.
Do have read carrefully ?? .
Because the problems in POSO is basicly the so called SARA .
(Suku Agama ,Ras) .
It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidents.
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Kiwimave :
Yes it is horrible .
Apparently you have some Inside Information ??.
Because without evidence you are blaming a certain Islamic group.
Do have read carrefully ?? .
Because the problems in POSO is basicly the so called SARA .
(Suku Agama ,Ras) .
It is premature to blame people before they knows all the evidents.
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On 29-10-2005 13:05 sascha wrote:
bloody barbaric bastards.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.
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My dear Sascha :
1. True , its B3 = bloody, barbaric, bastards.
2. Now you are shouting .
You look like to me as a bloody foreigner ,only shouting and blaming people in indonesia.
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On 29-10-2005 13:05 sascha wrote:
bloody barbaric bastards.
Worst is nobody in indonesia will care, no outcry of an civilized society, no protest - just nothing. nobody is responsible - nobody will solve the problem.
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My dear Sascha :
1. True , its B3 = bloody, barbaric, bastards.
2. Now you are shouting .
You look like to me as a bloody foreigner ,only shouting and blaming people in indonesia.
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sure u can call me a bloody foreigner. i dont care.
who else should i blame, the last time somebody was beheaded for stupid religion in germany was some 60 years ago.
to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized.
u dont want foreigners to critisize indonesia?! then u also better dont want foreign investments in indonesia. pull urself out of the dirt with ur proud nation. 
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sure u can call me a bloody foreigner. i dont care.
who else should i blame, the last time somebody was beheaded for stupid religion in germany was some 60 years ago.
to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized.
u dont want foreigners to critisize indonesia?! then u also better dont want foreign investments in indonesia. pull urself out of the dirt with ur proud nation.
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Sascha :
The "ART "of discussion is to read carefully the messages , and give an opnion with points and if possible with watertight arguments.
Not only shouting.
Yr First point is O.K.
But yr Second Point is rubbish. (worst is NOBODY ---------- etc ) What are you talking about ??.Excuse me .
About yr comment : to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized :
So what , I dont care if you are shouting AGAIN , because without pointing to
an universal criteria it is only a personal opinion of Mr Sascha.
And you are AGAIN blaming people .
Abt : foreign investment , that is the choise of the tradepartners.
In my opinion you must read the News carrefully .
I think there are 4 components in the news.
1. 3 girls beheaded.
2. the investigation is not yet ready.
3. the trouble (killing ) is from both side (It is horrible fact)
4. the Chr. leaders are blaming Jakarta (the Govt).
At this point of discussion you can only give a comment abt. point 1 and maybe point 4 .
But you are beginning with shouting.
Abt yr last comment : to put meself out the dirt ---.
That is yr opinion, (to me from a bloodyforeigner).
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Sascha :
The "ART "of discussion is to read carefully the messages , and give an opnion with points and if possible with watertight arguments.
Not only shouting.
Yr First point is O.K.
But yr Second Point is rubbish. (worst is NOBODY ---------- etc ) What are you talking about ??.Excuse me .
About yr comment : to me indonesia looks pretty damn uncivilized :
So what , I dont care if you are shouting AGAIN , because without pointing to
an universal criteria it is only a personal opinion of Mr Sascha.
And you are AGAIN blaming people .
Abt : foreign investment , that is the choise of the tradepartners.
In my opinion you must read the News carrefully .
I think there are 4 components in the news.
1. 3 girls beheaded.
2. the investigation is not yet ready.
3. the trouble (killing ) is from both side (It is horrible fact)
4. the Chr. leaders are blaming Jakarta (the Govt).
At this point of discussion you can only give a comment abt. point 1 and maybe point 4 .
But you are beginning with shouting.
Abt yr last comment : to put meself out the dirt ---.
That is yr opinion, (to me from a bloodyforeigner).
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society
btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.
p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm
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i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society
btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.
p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm
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aponto
User
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sascha
User
i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society
btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.
p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm
......................................................................................................................................
I think you are in a certain state of mind ,when you send msgges.
People like you ,use internet to start a career as a comedian.
Sukses and amuse your audience 
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aponto
User
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sascha
User
i think im quite right , u will see no candle chains or any kind of protest condemning this crime. u wont see a religious leader speak up and change something.
the other points, i dont care who killed who. people were killed in a babaric way thats already enough. Its not happening the first time and it wont be the last if nothing changes. i did not blame muslims if u r intending that.
i blame indonesian society
btw this is ALL my very personal opinion. and yeah why should anybody care for some 3rd world country. go kill urselfs, less mouths to feed and less people stealing work from us developed foreigners.
p.s.: watch it some parts of this comment contain serious sarcasm
......................................................................................................................................
I think you are in a certain state of mind ,when you send msgges.
People like you ,use internet to start a career as a comedian.
Sukses and amuse your audience
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putri
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Hi Sidia,
You don't have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said. I think in some of the points could be a bit true. Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners. Anyway, in this time, Indonesia should change. Change its perspective, and change the way of looking on some subjects, just like above matter. Should the law and authority begin to take it seriously, to give a sign to those people with strange ideas, and trouble makers, that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again. So if there is a very hard effort from authority to find out and seriously handling this matter ( involving those priesters and ulama's together, telling them, basically they are talking about the same thing : religion , telling people doing "good" things..) it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit) We cannot close our eyes, that underground activities is going on in Indonesia trying to ruin the whole nation.SARA is only a very vertile ground to start the mess. But, who we are, it's quite difficult to tell those high positions guys, they are too arrogant to listen..and I think this topic is quite difficult ..too difficult for somebody who doesn;t understand politics like me. hmm.. very sad message though, 3 innocent young girls' life has been wasted.
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putri
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Hi Sidia,
You don't have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said. I think in some of the points could be a bit true. Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners. Anyway, in this time, Indonesia should change. Change its perspective, and change the way of looking on some subjects, just like above matter. Should the law and authority begin to take it seriously, to give a sign to those people with strange ideas, and trouble makers, that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again. So if there is a very hard effort from authority to find out and seriously handling this matter ( involving those priesters and ulama's together, telling them, basically they are talking about the same thing : religion , telling people doing "good" things..) it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit) We cannot close our eyes, that underground activities is going on in Indonesia trying to ruin the whole nation.SARA is only a very vertile ground to start the mess. But, who we are, it's quite difficult to tell those high positions guys, they are too arrogant to listen..and I think this topic is quite difficult ..too difficult for somebody who doesn;t understand politics like me. hmm.. very sad message though, 3 innocent young girls' life has been wasted.
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putri
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Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody. Remember when they have heads run around on a motorcycle ? it was few years ago, but the Dayaks doesn;t looks very primitive on their motorcycles.
And I saw people enjoying this pictures on the newspaper, some thinks it was funny . (What about if children staring at those pictures?)
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putri
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Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody. Remember when they have heads run around on a motorcycle ? it was few years ago, but the Dayaks doesn;t looks very primitive on their motorcycles.
And I saw people enjoying this pictures on the newspaper, some thinks it was funny . (What about if children staring at those pictures?)
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On 29-10-2005 23:06 putri wrote:
You dont have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said.
I think in some of the points could be a bit true.
Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners.
that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again.
it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit)
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a. I am not , but it is ridiculous if a stranger, a foreigner talking about something without any knowledge or background information.
(In dutch = Spuit Elf)
b. only his 1st point., see my comment.
2nd point is rubbish.
c. I dont agree that orang kita ? (who is the orang kita) will see it as an entertainment , barbaric murder is barbaric and also a traumatic experience.
d. agree (see also indonesian nw papers)
e. agree
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On 29-10-2005 23:06 putri wrote:
You dont have to be seriously mad about what Sacha said.
I think in some of the points could be a bit true.
Somebody;s head rolling over could be a real entertainment for "orang kita" meanwhile it is really traumatic for (mostly) westerners.
that these kind of things is bloody serious, and should be punished strongly. I know, it is just trying to start a fire again, and again and again.
it should warn those maniacs, that their actions has no results. (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika spirit)
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a. I am not , but it is ridiculous if a stranger, a foreigner talking about something without any knowledge or background information.
(In dutch = Spuit Elf)
b. only his 1st point., see my comment.
2nd point is rubbish.
c. I dont agree that orang kita ? (who is the orang kita) will see it as an entertainment , barbaric murder is barbaric and also a traumatic experience.
d. agree (see also indonesian nw papers)
e. agree
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On 29-10-2005 23:17 putri wrote:
Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody.
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We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .
About the problems between the Dayaks and Madurese in Kalimantan you can or must see it as a conflict of interest , and as everyone know in the past the dayaks are headhunters . Maybe it is a part of their "culture" ? .
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On 29-10-2005 23:17 putri wrote:
Sidia, before a misunderstanding on orang kita readers, well, I meant, not all of orang kita, but mostly the Indonesian are pretty strong to see deadbody.
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We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .
About the problems between the Dayaks and Madurese in Kalimantan you can or must see it as a conflict of interest , and as everyone know in the past the dayaks are headhunters . Maybe it is a part of their "culture" ? .
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sglange
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 Sascha & Sidia;
Please be calm on this issue. As for me, I do not blame either the Christians or the Muslims for what has happened. The reason is that if the Police has been doing their jobs properly these things would not have happened in the first place. Also the politicians in the local arean should be blamed and not the police alone.
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sglange
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Sascha & Sidia;
Please be calm on this issue. As for me, I do not blame either the Christians or the Muslims for what has happened. The reason is that if the Police has been doing their jobs properly these things would not have happened in the first place. Also the politicians in the local arean should be blamed and not the police alone.
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sgllange :
thanks for yr neutral mssg,
I am still calm, only giving comment to someone .
It is strange that someone can give such opinion within 1,5 hour (very clever) and begin to shout, blaming and insulting people.
Quote : 1. worst is nobody-----
2. to me indonesia looks pr. damn uncivilized
3. I blame indonesian society.
That is not a good start for a discussion .
I think people must realized to be carrefully if they will discuss about a (very) sensitive problems.
A forum is not a carte blanche for insulting people.
Maybe he must learned about the "Art" of discussion.
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sgllange :
thanks for yr neutral mssg,
I am still calm, only giving comment to someone .
It is strange that someone can give such opinion within 1,5 hour (very clever) and begin to shout, blaming and insulting people.
Quote : 1. worst is nobody-----
2. to me indonesia looks pr. damn uncivilized
3. I blame indonesian society.
That is not a good start for a discussion .
I think people must realized to be carrefully if they will discuss about a (very) sensitive problems.
A forum is not a carte blanche for insulting people.
Maybe he must learned about the "Art" of discussion.
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Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 00:36 sidia wrote:
...
We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .
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Nonsense. This has nothing to do with foreigners. My wife from Kalimantan is still everyday more astonished then me with the local habits in Yogyakarta. The same with my friends from Sumatra. One friend from Bukittinggi once said to me that he has more in common with a German then with a Javanese. My ex-wife as Moluccan fled away from Java because she couldn't stand the local culture anymore. She felt like a stranger in her own country.
My Javanese friend from Holland who comes every 3 months to Jakarta and Yogyakarta is reluctant to go back to Holland cause he's completely alienated from his fellow-Indonesians and get headaches of them.
Then we're not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who don't feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasn't that the problem in Aceh either?!
It's nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas. I can see it in my own relationship; because I am living much longer in Jawa then my wife, I am able to understand them a little bit more then my Indonesian wife who is from another island.
This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.
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Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 00:36 sidia wrote:
...
We Indonesian can understandd each other , the rules , written or unwritten.
But it is difficcult to explain it to a foreigners esp. a "tourist " .
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Nonsense. This has nothing to do with foreigners. My wife from Kalimantan is still everyday more astonished then me with the local habits in Yogyakarta. The same with my friends from Sumatra. One friend from Bukittinggi once said to me that he has more in common with a German then with a Javanese. My ex-wife as Moluccan fled away from Java because she couldn't stand the local culture anymore. She felt like a stranger in her own country.
My Javanese friend from Holland who comes every 3 months to Jakarta and Yogyakarta is reluctant to go back to Holland cause he's completely alienated from his fellow-Indonesians and get headaches of them.
Then we're not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who don't feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasn't that the problem in Aceh either?!
It's nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas. I can see it in my own relationship; because I am living much longer in Jawa then my wife, I am able to understand them a little bit more then my Indonesian wife who is from another island.
This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:
...
Nonsense.
Its nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas.
This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.
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Y-B.
Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.
But that is an universal feeling of a migrant (pendatang).
For example in Holland , (for the dutchies) , a Tukker or Groninger , Fries have also the right to settled in / around the big cities.
But they are "still" people from outside. At least the first generation.
They dont think , talk , act like people from amsterdam or rotterdam.
But it is normal a situation , every migrant must integrated with the people in the new place .
Like Siapa : more than 25 yrs living in holland in several big cities (not Loetjebroek) , talk , think , some times act as a blandees (very confusing to him = pusing also ).
But he is still a foreigner(bukan pasport merah) , feel as foreigner .
And very happy to live among the friendly and tolerant people of holland.
F.E. Putri is coming from Surabaya (?) , a Javanese .
I am coming from Jakarta (Sundanese) , We have not the same background but if she talk about "orang kita ", BUT I can understand her.
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:
...
Nonsense.
Its nonsense that Indonesians understand each other, rules written or unwritten. That is wishful thinking but no reality.
Probably this bloody foreigner is without prejudice more capable of understanding the Javanese then - for example - their own fellow Indonesians from other areas.
This big misunderstanding is also the cause of the problems in Maluku, Kalimantan and Poso where outsiders from other areas of Indonesia are invading and overruling the local community in numbers without any respect for the local culture, religion and customs.
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Y-B.
Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.
But that is an universal feeling of a migrant (pendatang).
For example in Holland , (for the dutchies) , a Tukker or Groninger , Fries have also the right to settled in / around the big cities.
But they are "still" people from outside. At least the first generation.
They dont think , talk , act like people from amsterdam or rotterdam.
But it is normal a situation , every migrant must integrated with the people in the new place .
Like Siapa : more than 25 yrs living in holland in several big cities (not Loetjebroek) , talk , think , some times act as a blandees (very confusing to him = pusing also ).
But he is still a foreigner(bukan pasport merah) , feel as foreigner .
And very happy to live among the friendly and tolerant people of holland.
F.E. Putri is coming from Surabaya (?) , a Javanese .
I am coming from Jakarta (Sundanese) , We have not the same background but if she talk about "orang kita ", BUT I can understand her.
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Jantje
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Sidia,
All you say is: Yes, it’s horrible. Then you start extensively playing down the horrified reactions of other forum members by saying: have you inside info/ nothing has been proven yet. What are you up to? Trying to figure out what sins these girls may have committed to deserve such punishment? For sex before marriage they should have been stoned you know! You probably are hoping and praying with your head in the sand that it was not a muslim related group that committed these atrocities. Appealing to your sense of reality and civilisation is like digging the bog! 
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Jantje
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Sidia,
All you say is: Yes, it’s horrible. Then you start extensively playing down the horrified reactions of other forum members by saying: have you inside info/ nothing has been proven yet. What are you up to? Trying to figure out what sins these girls may have committed to deserve such punishment? For sex before marriage they should have been stoned you know! You probably are hoping and praying with your head in the sand that it was not a muslim related group that committed these atrocities. Appealing to your sense of reality and civilisation is like digging the bog!
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Fotograaf
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While reading the different reactions here on this forum, one thing came to my mind: This is exactly the provocators are aiming for, trying to divide the people.. 
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Fotograaf
User
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While reading the different reactions here on this forum, one thing came to my mind: This is exactly the provocators are aiming for, trying to divide the people..
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On 30-10-2005 10:29 Jantje wrote:
Sidia,
1.All you say is: Yes, it’s horrible.
2.Then you start extensively playing down the horrified reactions of other forum members by saying: have you inside info/ nothing has been proven yet.
3. What are you up to?
4.Trying to figure out what sins these girls may have committed to deserve such punishment?
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a. Yes , it means horrible , only that.
It is horrible enough , or must I say 1000 times or million times horrible ??
Maybe under influence of my background I am very clear about such crimes(terorism).= in dutch De Beuk Er In.
b.this is an open forum, everyone can read an opinion .
I.m.o. someone is to quick with judgements and blaming people.
It is very quick and very clever to have an opinion and place an interpretation in an open forum .
This is another thema like giving comment abt. the quality of a restaurant or a hotel.
c. this is a very sensitive probIem / crime , thats why people must realized
(incl. me) to be carefull .
d. I dont recognise yr interpretation . and of course it is yr own and it is yr right to have an opinion.
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On 30-10-2005 10:29 Jantje wrote:
Sidia,
1.All you say is: Yes, it’s horrible.
2.Then you start extensively playing down the horrified reactions of other forum members by saying: have you inside info/ nothing has been proven yet.
3. What are you up to?
4.Trying to figure out what sins these girls may have committed to deserve such punishment?
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a. Yes , it means horrible , only that.
It is horrible enough , or must I say 1000 times or million times horrible ??
Maybe under influence of my background I am very clear about such crimes(terorism).= in dutch De Beuk Er In.
b.this is an open forum, everyone can read an opinion .
I.m.o. someone is to quick with judgements and blaming people.
It is very quick and very clever to have an opinion and place an interpretation in an open forum .
This is another thema like giving comment abt. the quality of a restaurant or a hotel.
c. this is a very sensitive probIem / crime , thats why people must realized
(incl. me) to be carefull .
d. I dont recognise yr interpretation . and of course it is yr own and it is yr right to have an opinion.
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Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia. Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there. 
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids   )
I know about the dayak headhunter history still it doesnt make it culture to me - its uncivilized!
By the way there is no way to have discussion with u, we can have debate but thats all as ur position is set in stone.
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Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia. Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there.
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids )
I know about the dayak headhunter history still it doesnt make it culture to me - its uncivilized!
By the way there is no way to have discussion with u, we can have debate but thats all as ur position is set in stone.
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I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks 
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I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks
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On 30-10-2005 11:00 sascha wrote:
Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia.
Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there.
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids )
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Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.
1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.
2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?
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On 30-10-2005 11:00 sascha wrote:
Sidia its nice that u r always right and have all the knowledge. U r truelly mr. Indonesia.
Even u dont live there anymore. Sure u have extensive knowledge of nowadays life there, even more then ur fellow brothers and sisters who still live there.
Maybe u r too old to know, but in the indonesian youth it is entertainment to send and share very cruelsome pictures and videos per hp, forum and mail.(same has some naughty hpvids )
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Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.
1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.
2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:
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Then were not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who dont feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasnt that the problem in Aceh either?!
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I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.
Abt : Aceh : is beginning because they will established the Darul Islam
Since the time of Daud Beureuh.(50 yrs ago ?)
(The Govt : have also problems with D.I. (kartosuwirjo). in west java)
Nothing problems with acc. you the javanese colonizers.
abt Irian : you could be right.
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On 30-10-2005 09:01 Yogya-Bali wrote:
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Then were not talking yet about the Papuans, the people from East-Nusa Tenggara, who dont feel anything in common with their new colonizers, the Javanese. Wasnt that the problem in Aceh either?!
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I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.
Abt : Aceh : is beginning because they will established the Darul Islam
Since the time of Daud Beureuh.(50 yrs ago ?)
(The Govt : have also problems with D.I. (kartosuwirjo). in west java)
Nothing problems with acc. you the javanese colonizers.
abt Irian : you could be right.
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Fotograaf
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks
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Papaya can you pls explain to me why you are thinking that those murderers are reading this forum?
You are reacting exactly the way those culprits are hoping for, pointing your finger to all (Muslem) Indonesians. Widening the gap this way.
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Fotograaf
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks
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Papaya can you pls explain to me why you are thinking that those murderers are reading this forum?
You are reacting exactly the way those culprits are hoping for, pointing your finger to all (Muslem) Indonesians. Widening the gap this way.
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Friends :
I have read the news: Govt boost security after girls beheaded (placed almost 4 hours ago) .
And no one have give a quick reply.(minutes ago)
Because in this topic within 1,5 hour there are already some judgement , and some discussion between users.
I am wondering what the reason of it . ??
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Friends :
I have read the news: Govt boost security after girls beheaded (placed almost 4 hours ago) .
And no one have give a quick reply.(minutes ago)
Because in this topic within 1,5 hour there are already some judgement , and some discussion between users.
I am wondering what the reason of it . ??
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On 30-10-2005 11:29 sidia wrote:
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Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.
1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.
2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?
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sidia thats exactly the point u also dont have any knowledge about others or my background, so dont call other people touris or question their knowledge about indonesia OK!!!!
And if other people say something just try to give it a thought once(not about my comments but take putri for example)
u ask for points?? what for?? u will simply ignore them(like what i brought up a lot of young indonesians find cruel stuff enterntaining)
U get personal all the time so dont cry now. I just gave u ur own medicine(bit exaggerated so)
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On 30-10-2005 11:29 sidia wrote:
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Sascha try to behave , come with points , donot get personal.
1. I am nothing , even not educated enough.
2. you dont know what background I have.
3. Yes young man I am older than you (its fact) , and then ??? I know nothing about the "modern" stuff ? Do you know me ?
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sidia thats exactly the point u also dont have any knowledge about others or my background, so dont call other people touris or question their knowledge about indonesia OK!!!!
And if other people say something just try to give it a thought once(not about my comments but take putri for example)
u ask for points?? what for?? u will simply ignore them(like what i brought up a lot of young indonesians find cruel stuff enterntaining)
U get personal all the time so dont cry now. I just gave u ur own medicine(bit exaggerated so)
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aponto
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Sidia yth,
As you probably know from experience ,certain topics might be a reason for some visitors to start an agressive discussion.
There is nothing you can do about it.It reminds me of 1999 and brings me this situation into perspective.
I had invited some of the regulars to see me for a coffee visit,when the person
was around the place where we live in Indonesia.We have met him(coincidental)somewhere else .To be short:during our conversation he found that contempting and offending was basically allowed.
But I had also noticed a very remarkable thing.During our conversation
his views on issues in Indonesia were very different compared to his virtual contributions on many forums.
I know,it is not easy to ignore those persons and msgges.but I thinks it is the only medicine.
Aponto
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aponto
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Sidia yth,
As you probably know from experience ,certain topics might be a reason for some visitors to start an agressive discussion.
There is nothing you can do about it.It reminds me of 1999 and brings me this situation into perspective.
I had invited some of the regulars to see me for a coffee visit,when the person
was around the place where we live in Indonesia.We have met him(coincidental)somewhere else .To be short:during our conversation he found that contempting and offending was basically allowed.
But I had also noticed a very remarkable thing.During our conversation
his views on issues in Indonesia were very different compared to his virtual contributions on many forums.
I know,it is not easy to ignore those persons and msgges.but I thinks it is the only medicine.
Aponto
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Yogya-Bali
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Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.
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I didn't say all of them have a bad experience but it is obvious for them that you can not talk about Indonesians because of the big differences between the several regions. And this is logical cause that's everywhere in the world with islanders. And if you imagine that Indonesia is as big as Europe... Also an Italian is quite different from a Norwegian. Although Europe is not one country, it is still understandable that you can hardly speak about Indonesians who can understand each other, knowing the rules, etc.
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Yogya-Bali
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Nonsense ???
It is possible that you / yr friends have another experience and maybe the bad one.
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I didn't say all of them have a bad experience but it is obvious for them that you can not talk about Indonesians because of the big differences between the several regions. And this is logical cause that's everywhere in the world with islanders. And if you imagine that Indonesia is as big as Europe... Also an Italian is quite different from a Norwegian. Although Europe is not one country, it is still understandable that you can hardly speak about Indonesians who can understand each other, knowing the rules, etc.
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Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 12:09 sidia wrote:
I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.
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About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race. And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities. Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation. Even talk with Bugis or Makasarese. Why you think they were so proud about Habibie becoming president and now Jusuf Kalla as vice-president. They don't like the Javanese hegemony of their island (not the number of Javanes migrants but the cultural colonization of Java; like the McDonald-zation of the world)); just because they don't understand their culture, their habits, the way of thinking.
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I would like to happen, is that Indonesia will be split like Yugoslavia. But that means that people (especially in Jakarta) have te realize how the other ethnic groups are feeling and thinking and not by putting the culture of the majority on a minority. Then you never will create a feeling of nationalism.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didn't want to celebrate Independence day? On TV they showed us how the Balinese were celebrating 17-8 on the beach of Kuta. At that same moment I was on the beach of Kuta and it was a complete set-up.
It is a certain sign, isn't it? And probably you can not blame the Balinese cause they suffered a lot the last years because of problems which were created by fellow-Indonesians from outside. The only reason that they react not in an anarchic way is because they realize very well that they are 100% depending on Jawa for their electricity.
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Yogya-Bali
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On 30-10-2005 12:09 sidia wrote:
I think theproblems of the people of Nusa Tenggara Timur is beginning with the transitions from the R.I. S to R.I and in relation with the separation of The RMS from NTT.
The problem of SARA in the mollucas is beginning with the BBM (migrants) people from Sulawesi .(BBM=Buton Bugis Makasar).IF I am wrong please correct me .
Thus Y-B not only the Javanese migrants. see also several reports.
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About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race. And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities. Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation. Even talk with Bugis or Makasarese. Why you think they were so proud about Habibie becoming president and now Jusuf Kalla as vice-president. They don't like the Javanese hegemony of their island (not the number of Javanes migrants but the cultural colonization of Java; like the McDonald-zation of the world)); just because they don't understand their culture, their habits, the way of thinking.
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I would like to happen, is that Indonesia will be split like Yugoslavia. But that means that people (especially in Jakarta) have te realize how the other ethnic groups are feeling and thinking and not by putting the culture of the majority on a minority. Then you never will create a feeling of nationalism.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didn't want to celebrate Independence day? On TV they showed us how the Balinese were celebrating 17-8 on the beach of Kuta. At that same moment I was on the beach of Kuta and it was a complete set-up.
It is a certain sign, isn't it? And probably you can not blame the Balinese cause they suffered a lot the last years because of problems which were created by fellow-Indonesians from outside. The only reason that they react not in an anarchic way is because they realize very well that they are 100% depending on Jawa for their electricity.
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Sascha :
In the 1st place an opinion with argument are important t me , not the background of someone.
But it could help to understand the reason/ arguments.
Frankly I dont know if you living in germany,but even so , you can have an opinion abt some theme.(in this case , this topic).
I am agree with the 1st one , but not agree abt the 2nd one.
Maybe it is to hard to say Rubbish , but that is my opinion, and with argument.
(premature judgement : Worst nobody ----29-10-2005 13.05)
In the same time you can read in several internet site (indonesian /dutch) that the Govt/ Pres. give orders to investigate the problem......
Abt Putri : I am mostly agree with her .
(read my mssg 30-10-2005 00.08)
Even I am saying : we can understand each others etc .
Y-B have another opinion, that is his right.
Being Personal : You are saying abt Mr Indonesia, my age etc ,= > Not pointing to my points. Are you Agree, Not Agree , and the reason/argument.
Abt : background : that is the answer reg . being personal.
You dont know me , but it is not a big problem , you schould only judging/giving comment regarding my opinion.
I know something(Not Much) about the Indonesian Culture , the people , how they live , relationship between Sundanese ,Jakartans? , Javanese , bataks, ambonese, balinese ,banten , minangkabaus ,menadonese ; chinese etc etc because I have relatives(family in law) and very very good friends.
And half of my live living in Indonesia ,born, go to school .
(the other half is in Holland).
And every 2 yrs in the past , and the last 5 yrs , every year playing tourist in indonesia.
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Sascha :
In the 1st place an opinion with argument are important t me , not the background of someone.
But it could help to understand the reason/ arguments.
Frankly I dont know if you living in germany,but even so , you can have an opinion abt some theme.(in this case , this topic).
I am agree with the 1st one , but not agree abt the 2nd one.
Maybe it is to hard to say Rubbish , but that is my opinion, and with argument.
(premature judgement : Worst nobody ----29-10-2005 13.05)
In the same time you can read in several internet site (indonesian /dutch) that the Govt/ Pres. give orders to investigate the problem......
Abt Putri : I am mostly agree with her .
(read my mssg 30-10-2005 00.08)
Even I am saying : we can understand each others etc .
Y-B have another opinion, that is his right.
Being Personal : You are saying abt Mr Indonesia, my age etc ,= > Not pointing to my points. Are you Agree, Not Agree , and the reason/argument.
Abt : background : that is the answer reg . being personal.
You dont know me , but it is not a big problem , you schould only judging/giving comment regarding my opinion.
I know something(Not Much) about the Indonesian Culture , the people , how they live , relationship between Sundanese ,Jakartans? , Javanese , bataks, ambonese, balinese ,banten , minangkabaus ,menadonese ; chinese etc etc because I have relatives(family in law) and very very good friends.
And half of my live living in Indonesia ,born, go to school .
(the other half is in Holland).
And every 2 yrs in the past , and the last 5 yrs , every year playing tourist in indonesia.
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On 30-10-2005 15:15 Yogya-Bali wrote:
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About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race.
And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities.
Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didnt want to celebrate Independence day?
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Y-B : That is why I say It is difficult to explain the sociale structure/ the problems of indonesia to foreigners or a tourist ( 4 of 5 times roundtrip between medan and Mataram , sometimes to sulawesi).
Abt the differences between east indonesia and west indonesia is a fact , another suku , adat etc etc.
But they have make an appointment in the past : NKRI.
As you know amsterdam is not only white nowadays , we have more than 100
etnicgroups.(rotterdam ? , the hague ? )
But we are Amsterdammers , we must living with others in peace .
And try to be a good Nederlander or at least medelanders.
Talking abt. politics : true it is (very) sensitive , but among friends we can always talk freely.
And most of my friends (generation) are always saying We are One .
Abt : Indep.Days celeberation : IF true , it is very sad.
Not for Indonesia only but also for the people there.
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On 30-10-2005 15:15 Yogya-Bali wrote:
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About Maluku you are right, the problems started with the so-called BBM. In Poso the same thing but then only the Bugis.
For Nusa Tenggara Timur it is quite a different thing. It has nothing to do with the RIS or the RMS, they are completely different from the West-Indonesians, even another race.
And they feel oppressed by the Javanese; not the people but the Javanese culture which is so prominent in the government and the authorities.
Talk with these people and then you will here what they think about the nowadays situation.
Did you know that on 17th of August most of the villages in Bali didnt want to celebrate Independence day?
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Y-B : That is why I say It is difficult to explain the sociale structure/ the problems of indonesia to foreigners or a tourist ( 4 of 5 times roundtrip between medan and Mataram , sometimes to sulawesi).
Abt the differences between east indonesia and west indonesia is a fact , another suku , adat etc etc.
But they have make an appointment in the past : NKRI.
As you know amsterdam is not only white nowadays , we have more than 100
etnicgroups.(rotterdam ? , the hague ? )
But we are Amsterdammers , we must living with others in peace .
And try to be a good Nederlander or at least medelanders.
Talking abt. politics : true it is (very) sensitive , but among friends we can always talk freely.
And most of my friends (generation) are always saying We are One .
Abt : Indep.Days celeberation : IF true , it is very sad.
Not for Indonesia only but also for the people there.
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searching
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Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted God's Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
ISN'T IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?
Haven't I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?
And don't ever dare blaming all the Indonesian Society. Don't YOU ever dare. There are a lot of good people in Indonesian society. And to blame others like Christians, HIndus, etc will not whitewash all you have done wrong.
Why is it hard to take responsibility, Indonesian moslems, that there's something wrong in Islam? I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?
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searching
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Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted God's Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
ISN'T IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?
Haven't I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?
And don't ever dare blaming all the Indonesian Society. Don't YOU ever dare. There are a lot of good people in Indonesian society. And to blame others like Christians, HIndus, etc will not whitewash all you have done wrong.
Why is it hard to take responsibility, Indonesian moslems, that there's something wrong in Islam? I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?
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kathryn pollard
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I wonder why whoever carried our the gross acts of cruelty and violence on the beautiful island of Sulawesi chose 3 young women who were Christians.
We live in a topsy turvy world. I do not jump to blame the most likely culprits.
There are people across the globe who have goals that they seek to reach by subversive methods including using other people to fire their shots. "Whatever it takes" tactics can have devastating consequences for naive people who can very easily become pawns.
Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.
To seek to understand the mind set and sick psyche of people who condone and carry out such acts as the beheading of 3 young women is just too difficult.
If the goal of the people who instigated and carried out the killings is to create divisions in Indonesian society then the people of Sulawesi and other places need to be warned.
I am sorry for all the good citizens of Indonesia. From what I have learnt your current President is an astute and intelligent leader with an advanced capacity to understand the complexities of his nations people.
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kathryn pollard
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I wonder why whoever carried our the gross acts of cruelty and violence on the beautiful island of Sulawesi chose 3 young women who were Christians.
We live in a topsy turvy world. I do not jump to blame the most likely culprits.
There are people across the globe who have goals that they seek to reach by subversive methods including using other people to fire their shots. "Whatever it takes" tactics can have devastating consequences for naive people who can very easily become pawns.
Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.
To seek to understand the mind set and sick psyche of people who condone and carry out such acts as the beheading of 3 young women is just too difficult.
If the goal of the people who instigated and carried out the killings is to create divisions in Indonesian society then the people of Sulawesi and other places need to be warned.
I am sorry for all the good citizens of Indonesia. From what I have learnt your current President is an astute and intelligent leader with an advanced capacity to understand the complexities of his nations people.
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searching
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Kathryn,
With all my respect, please don't be politically correct. We are talking about Islam Fundamentalists, why then you include Christians? There are onnly Islam Fundamentalists in Indonesia. Don't try to follow Bush and Blair. They are all dhimmis. They say Islam is a religion of peace. You know the complete sentence of the verse about humanity?
"Hai Children of Israel....if you kill a man than you kill mankind". So, is it for moslems? The verse is FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You let yourself fooled all the time. Why? Why the west become moslem apologists???
If you want to know more, please visit www.faithfreedom.org, where all the lies are unveiled.
Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.
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Pawns or not, they are here and there's no use in denying this.
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searching
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Kathryn,
With all my respect, please don't be politically correct. We are talking about Islam Fundamentalists, why then you include Christians? There are onnly Islam Fundamentalists in Indonesia. Don't try to follow Bush and Blair. They are all dhimmis. They say Islam is a religion of peace. You know the complete sentence of the verse about humanity?
"Hai Children of Israel....if you kill a man than you kill mankind". So, is it for moslems? The verse is FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You let yourself fooled all the time. Why? Why the west become moslem apologists???
If you want to know more, please visit www.faithfreedom.org, where all the lies are unveiled.
Fundamentalist Islamic and Christian folk are getting a bad reputation. Whether they deserve it or not I am not sure but they can easily become pawns.
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Pawns or not, they are here and there's no use in denying this.
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principe
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The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.
NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.
TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.
However the debate in this forum is getting several twists and looses its original and central focus.
Javanese kolonialism, religious intolerance, corruption etc start to infiltrate this debate.
I just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.
I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.
I wonder how such a survey will mirror itself in westerm European society when it comes to muslims and mosques in their respective neighbourhoods.
I remember quite some paint smearing on the walls of when the first mosque in a Dutch city was build. I remember plenty of verbal abuses as well.
I know for a fact that when a foreigner (often coloured) entered a room in wester european countries you could hear people think " their you have an immigrant". Nowadays you can hear them think "their you have an immigrant and a muslim"
In Indonesia you could hear similar prejudices when it comes to pig eating, liquor drinking immoral christian converting westerners etc.
And we can go on and on. But it strikes me though that Indonesians keep on being on the defensive when it comes to Muslims and Islam in general. As if they can do no wrong. Like Christians?westeners who think "only muslims can do such wrongs".
I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)
I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth
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principe
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The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.
NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.
TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.
However the debate in this forum is getting several twists and looses its original and central focus.
Javanese kolonialism, religious intolerance, corruption etc start to infiltrate this debate.
I just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.
I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.
I wonder how such a survey will mirror itself in westerm European society when it comes to muslims and mosques in their respective neighbourhoods.
I remember quite some paint smearing on the walls of when the first mosque in a Dutch city was build. I remember plenty of verbal abuses as well.
I know for a fact that when a foreigner (often coloured) entered a room in wester european countries you could hear people think " their you have an immigrant". Nowadays you can hear them think "their you have an immigrant and a muslim"
In Indonesia you could hear similar prejudices when it comes to pig eating, liquor drinking immoral christian converting westerners etc.
And we can go on and on. But it strikes me though that Indonesians keep on being on the defensive when it comes to Muslims and Islam in general. As if they can do no wrong. Like Christians?westeners who think "only muslims can do such wrongs".
I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)
I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.
a.What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
b.Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist???
c.I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?
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Dear Searcher ,
1st Welcome to you , you are back again.Very nice.
a. some group ?
b. Not the Bible , you mean the other Book ?
And everyone (everyone ?) have the possibilities to be a terorist (terorist).
What about owners ?
It seem very (VERY) spooky to me.
c. of course you are not a dhimmi(?)
And I got yr messg.
And the West : why the west become moslem apologist ?
Why ?? . Yes , why ?? , Sidia cant give the answer .
Please answer him . Pse ??
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
Why is so hard to say the truth. Truth hurts, Fotograaf? Sidia? SGlange?
Even Sacha is much more honest.
a.What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
b.Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist???
c.I am not a dhimmi to say everything you guys (and Islamists) want to hear.
GOT IT, GUYS?
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Dear Searcher ,
1st Welcome to you , you are back again.Very nice.
a. some group ?
b. Not the Bible , you mean the other Book ?
And everyone (everyone ?) have the possibilities to be a terorist (terorist).
What about owners ?
It seem very (VERY) spooky to me.
c. of course you are not a dhimmi(?)
And I got yr messg.
And the West : why the west become moslem apologist ?
Why ?? . Yes , why ?? , Sidia cant give the answer .
Please answer him . Pse ??
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searching
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[The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
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I don't take SABILI as a reliable resource. What is your resource? DUNIA ISLAM? the story is as ridiculous as the story that Israel was behind the 9/11.
just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.
I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.
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Two wrong don't make one right, my friend. So Tu quoque is not your way to avoid from being responsible. The only thing you can say is that I MISQUOTE or THE PHRASE IS NOT IN QURAN. But it is. You are just another moslem or another Islam apologist. Welcome and join Bush and Blair.
I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)
I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth
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The only "hatred" sermon I've ever heard in a Church was by calling the Mosque to be "Onion Church". And I disliked the priest for saying that. But please, we are talking about ISLAM EXTREMISTS IN INDONESIA. Don't be out of topic.
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searching
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[The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
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I don't take SABILI as a reliable resource. What is your resource? DUNIA ISLAM? the story is as ridiculous as the story that Israel was behind the 9/11.
just would like to react on one of those debates. Somebody said (rephrased) that in the Koran you could find references to killing in the name of God. I agree and so does the Old Testament.
I also agree with the observation that in Indoneisa their is a clear (latent) hatred of many muslims with regard to non muslims, espescially christians and westerners. This is nothing new. Indonesian history is full of xenophic refernces.A recent study showed a more or less 50% hatered of muslims with regard to anything christian in Indonesia. That is in line with facts and occurences in the field regarding church closures and religiously motivated intimidations.
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Two wrong don't make one right, my friend. So Tu quoque is not your way to avoid from being responsible. The only thing you can say is that I MISQUOTE or THE PHRASE IS NOT IN QURAN. But it is. You are just another moslem or another Islam apologist. Welcome and join Bush and Blair.
I have lived near a mosque (without a permit ofcourse) for many years. Most sermons were focussing on politics and I assure you that the remedies proposed were often in the shape of revenge, holy war and death......to the infidels (guess who those are)
I have yet to hear that in a christian surmon. Please record and tell me about it if it does occur though, if only to balance the universal traits of human beings on earth
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The only "hatred" sermon I've ever heard in a Church was by calling the Mosque to be "Onion Church". And I disliked the priest for saying that. But please, we are talking about ISLAM EXTREMISTS IN INDONESIA. Don't be out of topic.
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Jantje
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
ISNT IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?
Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?
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These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B. 
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Jantje
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On 31-10-2005 03:31 searching wrote:
What is a surprise if some group of Islam interpreted Gods Words of "KILL/SLAY THE UNBELIEVER" as "KILL AND SLAY THE UNBELIEVER, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS?"
ISNT IT WRITTEN IN THAT HOLY BOOK: SMITE THEIR NECKS?
Havent I told you guys that everyone reading the BOOK has the possibility to be a terrorist??? How many proof do you need??? How many deaths will it take?
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These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B.
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On 31-10-2005 09:11 Jantje wrote:
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These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B.
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Maybe a few lines in A book or bookS. ?
We in Holland know who Mr . B is , but the Non Dutch ?
Searcher no 29 :
Christian is NOT an Unbeliever , they are children of the books (like the jews).
They believe in the same God as the Muslim.
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On 31-10-2005 09:11 Jantje wrote:
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These are just a few lines from the "holy"books. Inspiring clerics with sick minds and the likes of Mohammed B.
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Maybe a few lines in A book or bookS. ?
We in Holland know who Mr . B is , but the Non Dutch ?
Searcher no 29 :
Christian is NOT an Unbeliever , they are children of the books (like the jews).
They believe in the same God as the Muslim.
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Jantje
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Ok then, for the non-Dutch: The Dutch celebrity, filmmaker Theo van Gogh, family of the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh was brutaly slaughtered a year ago by a moslim extremist Mohammed B.
He must have been inspired by the "holy book's" fraze: Smite their necks.
The middle ages in 2004!
This fraze could very well have appealed to the idiots that killed these innocent girls.
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Jantje
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Ok then, for the non-Dutch: The Dutch celebrity, filmmaker Theo van Gogh, family of the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh was brutaly slaughtered a year ago by a moslim extremist Mohammed B.
He must have been inspired by the "holy book's" fraze: Smite their necks.
The middle ages in 2004!
This fraze could very well have appealed to the idiots that killed these innocent girls.
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Fotograaf
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I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?
This might also be the case in this latest attack. It's not wise to make assumptions on forehand.
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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Fotograaf
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I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?
This might also be the case in this latest attack. It's not wise to make assumptions on forehand.
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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Yes , he is well informed. See his other mssg : Dont cry for me indonesia.
Principe , thanks for yr contribution.
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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Yes , he is well informed. See his other mssg : Dont cry for me indonesia.
Principe , thanks for yr contribution.
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principe
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To searching: I wonder if you really read what I wrote...
My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id
Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,
Others:
street gossip. general public opinion in Jakarta and outside Jakarta.
but most of all my daily life experience in Indonesia and my common sense.
I am not a Journalist but a researcher cum business man with an Indonesian lawyer as my wife and as my biggest source of Indonesian inspirational justice.
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principe
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To searching: I wonder if you really read what I wrote...
My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id
Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,
Others:
street gossip. general public opinion in Jakarta and outside Jakarta.
but most of all my daily life experience in Indonesia and my common sense.
I am not a Journalist but a researcher cum business man with an Indonesian lawyer as my wife and as my biggest source of Indonesian inspirational justice.
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principe
User
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On 31-10-2005 09:29 sidia wrote:
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They believe in the same God as the Muslim.
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Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.
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principe
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On 31-10-2005 09:29 sidia wrote:
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They believe in the same God as the Muslim.
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Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.
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principe
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks
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I do not know for sure. Some psychology may come in hand but can be rejected just as fast.
It is just a psychology theory: The psychology ends with a natural fear of death and starts with common resentment. Every stage of the process in between like being singled out, looked upon, maginalized, aliented, threatened,become a minority, end up powerless, incomeless, losing basic needs adds to the basic fear of finally lossing ones control over life and in the end life itself.
So if you would ask by generalizing why Muslim majority Indonesians or European christian Majority hates "the other" you may try and fit the above chain of fear into your specific environmental profile.
No scientific certainty, just a thaught
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principe
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On 30-10-2005 11:24 papaya wrote:
I get sic of those cowardly attacks on Christians in Indonesia...... What the hell is wrong with you people? Why do you hate Christians, whites and Chinese people so much? Please tell me. Thanks
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I do not know for sure. Some psychology may come in hand but can be rejected just as fast.
It is just a psychology theory: The psychology ends with a natural fear of death and starts with common resentment. Every stage of the process in between like being singled out, looked upon, maginalized, aliented, threatened,become a minority, end up powerless, incomeless, losing basic needs adds to the basic fear of finally lossing ones control over life and in the end life itself.
So if you would ask by generalizing why Muslim majority Indonesians or European christian Majority hates "the other" you may try and fit the above chain of fear into your specific environmental profile.
No scientific certainty, just a thaught
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searching
User
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My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id
Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,
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Funny, may be we don't read the same KOMPAS. Yesterday KOMPAS (31 Oct) that I read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the peope there have lost trust to the POLICE.
The story also said that it was suspected the doers COME FROM OUTSIDE of the AREA.
You may check it. And where is your source, if I may ask?
And Mr. Detective, think with your brain WHY IT IS ALWAYS THE CHRISTIANS to be the victims. If those COKER really wants to fuel a riot, just kill MOSLEMS and surely there will be a riot and LASKAR JIHAD will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.
Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.
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searching
User
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My sources in general are: the Jakarta Post, Suara Pembaruan, Tempo magazine, Republika, Media Indonesia, Kompas, Siwa Lima.
Television: Metro TV, ANTV, SCTV, RCTI, LaTV, TVG, TV7, BBC, CNN, RAI International, Deutche Welle, TV5
Internet:
http://www.detik.com
http://www.malra.org/posko/ (espescially regarding Maluku and Poso)
http://www.telegraaf.nl
http://www.nrc.nl
http://www.tempo.co.id
Sports:
La gazzetta dello Sport, VI
ESPN. STAR Sports,
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Funny, may be we don't read the same KOMPAS. Yesterday KOMPAS (31 Oct) that I read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the peope there have lost trust to the POLICE.
The story also said that it was suspected the doers COME FROM OUTSIDE of the AREA.
You may check it. And where is your source, if I may ask?
And Mr. Detective, think with your brain WHY IT IS ALWAYS THE CHRISTIANS to be the victims. If those COKER really wants to fuel a riot, just kill MOSLEMS and surely there will be a riot and LASKAR JIHAD will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.
Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.
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On 01-11-2005 03:39 principe wrote:
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Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
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Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.
My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)
Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .
see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .
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On 01-11-2005 03:39 principe wrote:
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Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
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Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.
My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)
Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .
see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .
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On 01-11-2005 04:36 searching wrote:
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Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.
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Searching
Can you give me yr honest opinion about this text :
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them , bring them here and kill them in front of me .
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On 01-11-2005 04:36 searching wrote:
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Sidia, I will only answer if you give me a genuine question, not a question you utter to do tuquoque or to reveal your inability to reason.
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Searching
Can you give me yr honest opinion about this text :
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them , bring them here and kill them in front of me .
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?
This might also be the case in this latest attack. Its not wise to make assumptions on forehand.
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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Salamat s.mua yth.,
Yes, ........ we must not forget to question ourselves who would benefit from these attacks: not ordinary christians and not ordinary islamists, but people who want this "crazy situation" still happens.
Members of the 'Coker' gang were forced to commit these attacks, if they do not do, they themselves would be attacked !!!
So who are these 'extremists' ???
I think it is also a method to 'shock' people in general, be it christians or islamists !!!
In LIbanon influential political leaders are being attacked, how come in INDOnesia they are not ??? "Why only ordinary people ???"
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On 31-10-2005 10:49 Fotograaf wrote:
I totally agree with Principe.
True about this coker (cowok keren aka cool guys) gang in Ambon who attacked Soya atas. As I remembered this gang was mixed Kristen-Muslim with their leader beeing a Christian. They did their randomly killings for money, payed by....some 3th party. Up to this date nobody knows for sure by whom...Kopassus? Suharto clan?
This might also be the case in this latest attack. Its not wise to make assumptions on forehand.
Well written Principe! You could be a journalist.
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Salamat s.mua yth.,
Yes, ........ we must not forget to question ourselves who would benefit from these attacks: not ordinary christians and not ordinary islamists, but people who want this "crazy situation" still happens.
Members of the 'Coker' gang were forced to commit these attacks, if they do not do, they themselves would be attacked !!!
So who are these 'extremists' ???
I think it is also a method to 'shock' people in general, be it christians or islamists !!!
In LIbanon influential political leaders are being attacked, how come in INDOnesia they are not ??? "Why only ordinary people ???"
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principe
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to searching:
funny, may be we don’t read the same kompas.
ofcourse we do
yesterday kompas (31 oct) that i read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the people there have lost trust to the police.
the story also said that it was suspected the doers come from outside of the area.
you may check it.
i take it for granted
and where is your source, if i may ask?
the new york times ran an article on october 30, 2005 with the title "masked men decapitate 3 schoolgirls in indonesia". the story was taken form reuters news desk.
and mr. detective, think with your brain why it is always the christians to be the victims. if those coker really wants to fuel a riot, just kill moslems and surely there will be a riot and laskar jihad will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.
i am not a dectective and do not pretend to be one, though i am a researcher and i do know how to handle sources using my brain. it is a most vital part of any research, thank you.
as far as the secterian violence of maluku is concerned between 1999 up till today many reports tend to suggest that christians defended their turf and mostly inbound muslim extremists were the attacking party besides other usual suspects.
i belief this is very true based on simple geographical and ethnicity facts alone. christian villages did retaliate however and caused casualties among muslim inbound fighters as well as local muslim commnuties. in the spiral of violence that followed often the agressor and the victim became blurred. nevertheless it is obvious that outside muslim extremists aggrevated the situation as agressors in maluku. if you look for who struck first blood than the answer is as endless as history can reach.
when i was in maluku in 2000 (one of my many visits as i have a business running in the bay of piru, west seram) i stayed in my usual hotel manise and christian gangs were sweeping the area around the hotel in search of muslims. they entered the premises and asked about possible muslim guests and/or staff. we know for a fact that some staff was muslim but the management managed to hide their identity. the left the building and a few 100 meters further they slaughtered three muslims that were unlucky enough not to hide in time. the were left bleeding on the street. two of them died of their wounds i was told.
but the whole idea for those in charge of the grand scenario seemed to be keeping a balance between both parties in terms of “turf given and turf taken”. there was a strange kind of understanding among several soldiers to act ones a certain line was crossed and to let massacres just unfold within invisible designated lines.
very interesting is the fact that the military was very capable of fending off the pertamina depots in wayame and the australian burial site. a very effective parimeter was put in place for that purpose. clearly that showed a well coordinated effort by the military. they could not afford to loose oil nor international intervention but lifes...they counted for less than chickens. and those were to be sacrificed.
there was much more than the naked eye could see espescially when your only reference are news reports. but a slightest detail in the framework is very visible to the insiders, the local population. a simple road block could trigger huge amounts of logistical consequences and trigger riots in villages that were sparred before and so on...
i am saying this to put the soya massacre in perspective and invite you not to underestimate military covert operations in this country. it may be interesting to read the interviews and police reports and the history and more about coker and maluku in general.
maybe you would like to delve in the endless sources provided by http://www.malra.org/posko/
it is worth the time and enriches the brain.
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principe
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to searching:
funny, may be we don’t read the same kompas.
ofcourse we do
yesterday kompas (31 oct) that i read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the people there have lost trust to the police.
the story also said that it was suspected the doers come from outside of the area.
you may check it.
i take it for granted
and where is your source, if i may ask?
the new york times ran an article on october 30, 2005 with the title "masked men decapitate 3 schoolgirls in indonesia". the story was taken form reuters news desk.
and mr. detective, think with your brain why it is always the christians to be the victims. if those coker really wants to fuel a riot, just kill moslems and surely there will be a riot and laskar jihad will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.
i am not a dectective and do not pretend to be one, though i am a researcher and i do know how to handle sources using my brain. it is a most vital part of any research, thank you.
as far as the secterian violence of maluku is concerned between 1999 up till today many reports tend to suggest that christians defended their turf and mostly inbound muslim extremists were the attacking party besides other usual suspects.
i belief this is very true based on simple geographical and ethnicity facts alone. christian villages did retaliate however and caused casualties among muslim inbound fighters as well as local muslim commnuties. in the spiral of violence that followed often the agressor and the victim became blurred. nevertheless it is obvious that outside muslim extremists aggrevated the situation as agressors in maluku. if you look for who struck first blood than the answer is as endless as history can reach.
when i was in maluku in 2000 (one of my many visits as i have a business running in the bay of piru, west seram) i stayed in my usual hotel manise and christian gangs were sweeping the area around the hotel in search of muslims. they entered the premises and asked about possible muslim guests and/or staff. we know for a fact that some staff was muslim but the management managed to hide their identity. the left the building and a few 100 meters further they slaughtered three muslims that were unlucky enough not to hide in time. the were left bleeding on the street. two of them died of their wounds i was told.
but the whole idea for those in charge of the grand scenario seemed to be keeping a balance between both parties in terms of “turf given and turf taken”. there was a strange kind of understanding among several soldiers to act ones a certain line was crossed and to let massacres just unfold within invisible designated lines.
very interesting is the fact that the military was very capable of fending off the pertamina depots in wayame and the australian burial site. a very effective parimeter was put in place for that purpose. clearly that showed a well coordinated effort by the military. they could not afford to loose oil nor international intervention but lifes...they counted for less than chickens. and those were to be sacrificed.
there was much more than the naked eye could see espescially when your only reference are news reports. but a slightest detail in the framework is very visible to the insiders, the local population. a simple road block could trigger huge amounts of logistical consequences and trigger riots in villages that were sparred before and so on...
i am saying this to put the soya massacre in perspective and invite you not to underestimate military covert operations in this country. it may be interesting to read the interviews and police reports and the history and more about coker and maluku in general.
maybe you would like to delve in the endless sources provided by http://www.malra.org/posko/
it is worth the time and enriches the brain.
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principe
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On 01-11-2005 09:33 sidia wrote:
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Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.
My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)
Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .
see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .
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I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
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principe
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On 01-11-2005 09:33 sidia wrote:
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Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.
My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)
Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .
see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .
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I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
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pfffffffffffffffffffff
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pfffffffffffffffffffff
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searching
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I AM NOT A DECTECTIVE AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE ONE, THOUGH I AM A RESEARCHER AND I DO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE SOURCES USING MY BRAIN. IT IS A MOST VITAL PART OF ANY RESEARCH, THANK YOU.
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Good that you are using your brain then. But having facts and organize it with your brain, you cannot escape SUBJECTIVITY, especially when you have something (experience, sameness in religion etc). That's why many researchers used STATISTICS before coming to conclusion. Or am I wrong?
WHEN I WAS IN MALUKU IN 2000 (ONE OF MY MANY VISITS AS I HAVE A BUSINESS RUNNING IN THE BAY OF PIRU, WEST SERAM) I STAYED IN MY USUAL HOTEL MANISE AND CHRISTIAN GANGS WERE SWEEPING THE AREA AROUND THE HOTEL IN SEARCH OF MUSLIMS. THEY ENTERED THE PREMISES AND ASKED ABOUT POSSIBLE MUSLIM GUESTS AND/OR STAFF. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SOME STAFF WAS MUSLIM BUT THE MANAGEMENT MANAGED TO HIDE THEIR IDENTITY. THE LEFT THE BUILDING AND A FEW 100 METERS FURTHER THEY SLAUGHTERED THREE MUSLIMS THAT WERE UNLUCKY ENOUGH NOT TO HIDE IN TIME. THE WERE LEFT BLEEDING ON THE STREET. TWO OF THEM DIED OF THEIR WOUNDS I WAS TOLD.
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I don't say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.
BUT THE WHOLE IDEA FOR THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE GRAND SCENARIO SEEMED TO BE KEEPING A BALANCE BETWEEN BOTH PARTIES IN TERMS OF “TURF GIVEN AND TURF TAKEN”. THERE WAS A STRANGE KIND OF UNDERSTANDING AMONG SEVERAL SOLDIERS TO ACT ONES A CERTAIN LINE WAS CROSSED AND TO LET MASSACRES JUST UNFOLD WITHIN INVISIBLE DESIGNATED LINES.
VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.
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Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?
VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.
THERE WAS MUCH MORE THAN THE NAKED EYE COULD SEE ESPESCIALLY WHEN YOUR ONLY REFERENCE ARE NEWS REPORTS. BUT A SLIGHTEST DETAIL IN THE FRAMEWORK IS VERY VISIBLE TO THE INSIDERS, THE LOCAL POPULATION. A SIMPLE ROAD BLOCK COULD TRIGGER HUGE AMOUNTS OF LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCES AND TRIGGER RIOTS IN VILLAGES THAT WERE SPARRED BEFORE AND SO ON...
I AM SAYING THIS TO PUT THE SOYA MASSACRE IN PERSPECTIVE AND INVITE YOU NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE MILITARY COVERT OPERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY. IT MAY BE INTERESTING TO READ THE INTERVIEWS AND POLICE REPORTS AND THE HISTORY AND MORE ABOUT COKER AND MALUKU IN GENERAL.
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I don't want to read much, don't have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya. Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I don't spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.
And I will respect if you don't write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.
And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE ONE RIGHT.
I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!
If I killed someone, then when people accused me of murdering, I pointed at you and said "But SIDIA is a killer too." Does that mean I was innocent?
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searching
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I AM NOT A DECTECTIVE AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE ONE, THOUGH I AM A RESEARCHER AND I DO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE SOURCES USING MY BRAIN. IT IS A MOST VITAL PART OF ANY RESEARCH, THANK YOU.
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Good that you are using your brain then. But having facts and organize it with your brain, you cannot escape SUBJECTIVITY, especially when you have something (experience, sameness in religion etc). That's why many researchers used STATISTICS before coming to conclusion. Or am I wrong?
WHEN I WAS IN MALUKU IN 2000 (ONE OF MY MANY VISITS AS I HAVE A BUSINESS RUNNING IN THE BAY OF PIRU, WEST SERAM) I STAYED IN MY USUAL HOTEL MANISE AND CHRISTIAN GANGS WERE SWEEPING THE AREA AROUND THE HOTEL IN SEARCH OF MUSLIMS. THEY ENTERED THE PREMISES AND ASKED ABOUT POSSIBLE MUSLIM GUESTS AND/OR STAFF. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SOME STAFF WAS MUSLIM BUT THE MANAGEMENT MANAGED TO HIDE THEIR IDENTITY. THE LEFT THE BUILDING AND A FEW 100 METERS FURTHER THEY SLAUGHTERED THREE MUSLIMS THAT WERE UNLUCKY ENOUGH NOT TO HIDE IN TIME. THE WERE LEFT BLEEDING ON THE STREET. TWO OF THEM DIED OF THEIR WOUNDS I WAS TOLD.
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I don't say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.
BUT THE WHOLE IDEA FOR THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE GRAND SCENARIO SEEMED TO BE KEEPING A BALANCE BETWEEN BOTH PARTIES IN TERMS OF “TURF GIVEN AND TURF TAKEN”. THERE WAS A STRANGE KIND OF UNDERSTANDING AMONG SEVERAL SOLDIERS TO ACT ONES A CERTAIN LINE WAS CROSSED AND TO LET MASSACRES JUST UNFOLD WITHIN INVISIBLE DESIGNATED LINES.
VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.
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Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?
VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.
THERE WAS MUCH MORE THAN THE NAKED EYE COULD SEE ESPESCIALLY WHEN YOUR ONLY REFERENCE ARE NEWS REPORTS. BUT A SLIGHTEST DETAIL IN THE FRAMEWORK IS VERY VISIBLE TO THE INSIDERS, THE LOCAL POPULATION. A SIMPLE ROAD BLOCK COULD TRIGGER HUGE AMOUNTS OF LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCES AND TRIGGER RIOTS IN VILLAGES THAT WERE SPARRED BEFORE AND SO ON...
I AM SAYING THIS TO PUT THE SOYA MASSACRE IN PERSPECTIVE AND INVITE YOU NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE MILITARY COVERT OPERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY. IT MAY BE INTERESTING TO READ THE INTERVIEWS AND POLICE REPORTS AND THE HISTORY AND MORE ABOUT COKER AND MALUKU IN GENERAL.
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I don't want to read much, don't have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya. Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I don't spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.
And I will respect if you don't write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.
And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE ONE RIGHT.
I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!
If I killed someone, then when people accused me of murdering, I pointed at you and said "But SIDIA is a killer too." Does that mean I was innocent?
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principe
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[quote] On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote: ...
You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.
[
I dont say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.
No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.
Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?
I am talking facts as presented to me through different source ( I tried to give you an interesting link, but you have to spare the time to really read them one by one, like I do) and a tentative analysis based on these fact including my assumptions. And as I wrote before
in my first posting in this forum "....any scenario or combination of it may be valid"
I remember I asked you whether you really read what I wrote. Because besides the above I also clearly stated that: "...NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators IN MY OPINION....."
I hope you understand that some accounts were presented and I gave my personal analysis (just my insight) that can be in the end very far from the mark. But you seem to react pretty agitated for me expressing my opinion. I wonder why ?
I dont want to read much, dont have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya.
According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...
What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.
Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I dont spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.
I am afraid you are, like many other posted messages in this and any other forum. But nobody is forcing you. I just wonder what you are so agited about ?
And I will respect if you dont write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.
i apologize for the Caps. I was not intending to shout, I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.
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principe
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[quote] On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote: ...
You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.
[
I dont say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.
No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.
Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?
I am talking facts as presented to me through different source ( I tried to give you an interesting link, but you have to spare the time to really read them one by one, like I do) and a tentative analysis based on these fact including my assumptions. And as I wrote before
in my first posting in this forum "....any scenario or combination of it may be valid"
I remember I asked you whether you really read what I wrote. Because besides the above I also clearly stated that: "...NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators IN MY OPINION....."
I hope you understand that some accounts were presented and I gave my personal analysis (just my insight) that can be in the end very far from the mark. But you seem to react pretty agitated for me expressing my opinion. I wonder why ?
I dont want to read much, dont have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya.
According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...
What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.
Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I dont spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.
I am afraid you are, like many other posted messages in this and any other forum. But nobody is forcing you. I just wonder what you are so agited about ?
And I will respect if you dont write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.
i apologize for the Caps. I was not intending to shout, I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.
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I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.
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Using caps is on your keyboard, not on this forum  But I will forgive you
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I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.
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Using caps is on your keyboard, not on this forum But I will forgive you
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On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:
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And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE ONE RIGHT.
I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!
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Once again ?? , only one ?
Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?
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On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:
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And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE ONE RIGHT.
I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!
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Once again ?? , only one ?
Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?
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searching
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:
You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.
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As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be. Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
That's my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.
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What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesn't make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, that's my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...
What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.
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What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:
http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834
In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?
And SIDIA
Once again ?? , only one ?
Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?
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Please use Complete American English Dictionary. If after using it you think I mean about Supermie or else, then it's up to you.
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:
You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.
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As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be. Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
That's my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.
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What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesn't make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, that's my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...
What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.
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What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:
http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834
In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?
And SIDIA
Once again ?? , only one ?
Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?
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Please use Complete American English Dictionary. If after using it you think I mean about Supermie or else, then it's up to you.
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Yogya-Bali
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Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met z'n islamitische en z'n christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.
Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?
(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)
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Yogya-Bali
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Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met z'n islamitische en z'n christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.
Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?
(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)
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Yogya-Bali
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By the way, ik neem het hier niet op voor de christenen maar zie het liever neutraal. Ik kan op dit forum niet ontkomen aan de drang van sommige forumleden om almaar de islam te moeten verdedigen. Ook van christenen, maar daar zitten een hoop niet onderbouwde, nietszeggende schreeuwen tussen die ik niet serieus neem.
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Yogya-Bali
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By the way, ik neem het hier niet op voor de christenen maar zie het liever neutraal. Ik kan op dit forum niet ontkomen aan de drang van sommige forumleden om almaar de islam te moeten verdedigen. Ook van christenen, maar daar zitten een hoop niet onderbouwde, nietszeggende schreeuwen tussen die ik niet serieus neem.
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Yogya-Bali
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Dear Yerun, excuse me that I was using the wrong language. Just whipe it out. Here is the one in English:
Dear Principe, there's a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum. Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
The so-called busdriver and his friend from Batu Merah (the small christian part of Batu Merah near Mardika, across the road) are wellknown by me (famliy, both originally from Aboru, Haruku-island), and also a lot of inhabitants of Soya Atas are wllknown for me (relatives of my best friend). I know of the existence of the Coker problem and gang, but not that they were involved in the Soya Atas raid as perpetrators.
Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?
(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)
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Yogya-Bali
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Dear Yerun, excuse me that I was using the wrong language. Just whipe it out. Here is the one in English:
Dear Principe, there's a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum. Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
The so-called busdriver and his friend from Batu Merah (the small christian part of Batu Merah near Mardika, across the road) are wellknown by me (famliy, both originally from Aboru, Haruku-island), and also a lot of inhabitants of Soya Atas are wllknown for me (relatives of my best friend). I know of the existence of the Coker problem and gang, but not that they were involved in the Soya Atas raid as perpetrators.
Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?
(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)
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Yogya-Bali
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By the way, I am not defending the Christians but like tob e neutral. I cannot escape on this forum from the idea that some members have the urge always to defend islam. Also from Christians, but between them are lot of non-saying, not well-founded, screaming reactions between which I don't take serious.
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Yogya-Bali
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By the way, I am not defending the Christians but like tob e neutral. I cannot escape on this forum from the idea that some members have the urge always to defend islam. Also from Christians, but between them are lot of non-saying, not well-founded, screaming reactions between which I don't take serious.
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On 03-11-2005 08:04 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Dear Principe, theres a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum.
Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?
(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)
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Y-B.
I am agree .
For you, people in ambon , outside ambon even in people in holland from indonesian origine can "understand" about "premanism", the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages.
But it is not easy for a tourist /foreigners with a several travelexperiences to understand it like the people from indonesia.
I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
I only try to give some information ,the other side of the medal , because as you can read , there are some people in this site who are judging , shouting , even insulting the indonesian in general .
I dont agree if some one think that a fora is a place to insulting people , because every fora have standard rules.( see FAQ).
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On 03-11-2005 08:04 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Dear Principe, theres a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum.
Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?
(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)
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Y-B.
I am agree .
For you, people in ambon , outside ambon even in people in holland from indonesian origine can "understand" about "premanism", the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages.
But it is not easy for a tourist /foreigners with a several travelexperiences to understand it like the people from indonesia.
I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
I only try to give some information ,the other side of the medal , because as you can read , there are some people in this site who are judging , shouting , even insulting the indonesian in general .
I dont agree if some one think that a fora is a place to insulting people , because every fora have standard rules.( see FAQ).
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Searcher for truth ,
I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .
Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .
According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .
I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .
I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.
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Searcher for truth ,
I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .
Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .
According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .
I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .
I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.
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On 03-11-2005 08:34 sidia wrote:
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I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
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What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion. I dont see enough improvements over there.
Over topic ur comparision with lines out of the bible. As u liked to say its comparing apples with pears. Besides some sects nobody takes literally all whats written in the holy book nowadays. In the muslim world there are also tendencies, but far more preach word for word as its written.
all of the above I.M.H.O
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On 03-11-2005 08:34 sidia wrote:
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I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
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What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion. I dont see enough improvements over there.
Over topic ur comparision with lines out of the bible. As u liked to say its comparing apples with pears. Besides some sects nobody takes literally all whats written in the holy book nowadays. In the muslim world there are also tendencies, but far more preach word for word as its written.
all of the above I.M.H.O
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On 03-11-2005 12:11 sascha wrote:
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What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion.
all of the above I.M.H.O
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also I.M.H.O.
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On 03-11-2005 12:11 sascha wrote:
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What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion.
all of the above I.M.H.O
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also I.M.H.O.
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It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx
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It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx
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principe
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:
As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be.
I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.
Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.
Thats my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.
I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!
The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.
Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.
What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.
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What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:
http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834
In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?
you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.
I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.
yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.
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principe
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Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:
As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be.
I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.
Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.
Thats my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.
I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!
The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.
Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.
What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.
...
What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:
http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834
In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?
you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.
I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.
yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.
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principe
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On 03-11-2005 07:18 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met zn islamitische en zn christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.
Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?
(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)
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Dear Sir, MAdam
My posting was not intended to attack nor defend muslims or christians . I do admit that I pointed my finger to the possible involvement of military elements in the slayings of the three Poso girls and in later postings the Soya incident. Who knows I might be totally wrong when the truth is revealed. I am certainly not thinking in terms of two wrongs make it right. In fact my approach is rather to identify two wrongs. As such I tried to explain the views of the muslim and christian communities in general (in Indonesia today) regarding the Holy Triinity for instance. To observe and reproduce is most rewarding to me as this expands understandings in my view. However when prejudice rules debates it is wise not to become labelled. As such I hope you understand the reluctance of me answering your question. It will blur the message how reasonable it maybe. As if wearing an AC milan shirt will never give credence to Inter extended compliments. Thank you for appreciating my contribution
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principe
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On 03-11-2005 07:18 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met zn islamitische en zn christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.
Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?
(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)
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Dear Sir, MAdam
My posting was not intended to attack nor defend muslims or christians . I do admit that I pointed my finger to the possible involvement of military elements in the slayings of the three Poso girls and in later postings the Soya incident. Who knows I might be totally wrong when the truth is revealed. I am certainly not thinking in terms of two wrongs make it right. In fact my approach is rather to identify two wrongs. As such I tried to explain the views of the muslim and christian communities in general (in Indonesia today) regarding the Holy Triinity for instance. To observe and reproduce is most rewarding to me as this expands understandings in my view. However when prejudice rules debates it is wise not to become labelled. As such I hope you understand the reluctance of me answering your question. It will blur the message how reasonable it maybe. As if wearing an AC milan shirt will never give credence to Inter extended compliments. Thank you for appreciating my contribution
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searching
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To Sidia:
I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .
Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .
According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .
I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .
I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.
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dhimmi: The people subjugated by Islam and have to pay Jiyzah. It's according to the quran that moslem must strive to dominate and other people of the book should become dhimmies (subjugated), while pagans should be slayed.
That's my understanding.
noodle: is a slang for brain/mind.
To Principe:
A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.
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Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected.
I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.
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You still haven't told me what reports are they.
i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.
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Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya.
Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.
I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!
The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.
Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.
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You forget one thing, that Moslems here like LASKAR JIHAD, have their own military trainings. Not that I say your story is completely impossible. That's why we need to see the motives and careful in concluding anything.
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I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.
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In Islam, it's called Taqiyya. Moslems are permitted to lie, when they perceive the situation as war. Please read Quran and Hadits to countercheck what I said here.
you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.
I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.
yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.
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It's nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions.
My other assumption is based on what is stated in quran: Invoke terror in the heart of the disbeliever. You can check that there are verses like this in quran, and you can check hadits too, to see if I am not bullshitting. So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror. And since the fall of Soeharto, the TNI and such have no power to overcome it. In the past, they can use "Penembak Misterius" (an evil method to kill people without being known, usually to kill preman). But now, after the press becomes so free, then it's almost impossible to do anything without people screaming.
If I meet my Ambonese friends, I will ask them and let you know the result, but cannot promise, because I lost contact with them for so many years.
To Yogya Bali:
Not necessarily that westerners defend Islam because of marriage, but because it's politically correct. They will say that Islam is the religion of peace. That's why I urge you to read www.faithfreedom.org (a site of an ex-moslem's). After that, you can read www.faithfreedom.com (a site to answer the first site) , so you will understand which one is right and which one is not. And you can be more objective.
To Sascha:
Sometimes, it's important to scream if you meet a certain type of personality. So I will not blame you for that.
To Jeroen:
Have a nice day. I know I bring a lot of headache to your young mind. So I do apologize. And if you don't mind, you may tell Principe how to use quotation, so his answers will not mix with mine.
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To Sidia:
I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .
Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .
According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .
I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .
I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.
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dhimmi: The people subjugated by Islam and have to pay Jiyzah. It's according to the quran that moslem must strive to dominate and other people of the book should become dhimmies (subjugated), while pagans should be slayed.
That's my understanding.
noodle: is a slang for brain/mind.
To Principe:
A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.
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Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected.
I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.
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You still haven't told me what reports are they.
i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.
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Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya.
Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.
I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!
The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.
Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.
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You forget one thing, that Moslems here like LASKAR JIHAD, have their own military trainings. Not that I say your story is completely impossible. That's why we need to see the motives and careful in concluding anything.
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I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.
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In Islam, it's called Taqiyya. Moslems are permitted to lie, when they perceive the situation as war. Please read Quran and Hadits to countercheck what I said here.
you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.
I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.
yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.
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It's nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions.
My other assumption is based on what is stated in quran: Invoke terror in the heart of the disbeliever. You can check that there are verses like this in quran, and you can check hadits too, to see if I am not bullshitting. So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror. And since the fall of Soeharto, the TNI and such have no power to overcome it. In the past, they can use "Penembak Misterius" (an evil method to kill people without being known, usually to kill preman). But now, after the press becomes so free, then it's almost impossible to do anything without people screaming.
If I meet my Ambonese friends, I will ask them and let you know the result, but cannot promise, because I lost contact with them for so many years.
To Yogya Bali:
Not necessarily that westerners defend Islam because of marriage, but because it's politically correct. They will say that Islam is the religion of peace. That's why I urge you to read www.faithfreedom.org (a site of an ex-moslem's). After that, you can read www.faithfreedom.com (a site to answer the first site) , so you will understand which one is right and which one is not. And you can be more objective.
To Sascha:
Sometimes, it's important to scream if you meet a certain type of personality. So I will not blame you for that.
To Jeroen:
Have a nice day. I know I bring a lot of headache to your young mind. So I do apologize. And if you don't mind, you may tell Principe how to use quotation, so his answers will not mix with mine.
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 searching:
You can use quotes by using :
You can then simply put the text from others you want to quote between the tags. You can plat a little with it by hitting the preview button first to see if you have what you wanted to have.
Don't worry to much about the rest
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searching:
You can use quotes by using :
You can then simply put the text from others you want to quote between the tags. You can plat a little with it by hitting the preview button first to see if you have what you wanted to have.
Don't worry to much about the rest
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On 03-11-2005 13:45 sascha wrote:
It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx
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At least 3 reason.
1.the numbers of ambonese people
2 .the socialstructure of their community.
3. their geographic spreading
As you see Almost Everybody know everybody , friends , family and don't forget their Adat , Pela.
The beginning of the problems : You can read in several sites about it , i.m.o it is only a Conflict of Interest , later escalated to the so called SARA .
I am sure they can solve the problem , because they Must solve it.
To live peacefully with their neighbours and friends.
See Balkan.
It easy to fight against strangers , but not easy if you must fight against friends , families.
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On 03-11-2005 13:45 sascha wrote:
It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx
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At least 3 reason.
1.the numbers of ambonese people
2 .the socialstructure of their community.
3. their geographic spreading
As you see Almost Everybody know everybody , friends , family and don't forget their Adat , Pela.
The beginning of the problems : You can read in several sites about it , i.m.o it is only a Conflict of Interest , later escalated to the so called SARA .
I am sure they can solve the problem , because they Must solve it.
To live peacefully with their neighbours and friends.
See Balkan.
It easy to fight against strangers , but not easy if you must fight against friends , families.
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principe
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Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected<
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Searching I do not want to be rude. Nor do I want to lecture you in a blitz on subjects that took me some 6 years to grasp and many more years of experience to perfect.
And I do not want to sound vain either. And I do not want to give you the impression that I try to avoid answering, but I wonder if this reaches an acceptable point
OK, here you go and I quote
In traditional Aristotelian logic, deductive reasoning is inference in which the conclusion is of lesser or equal generality than the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion is of greater generality than the premises. Other theories of logic define deductive reasoning as inference in which the conclusion is just as certain as the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion can have less certainty than the premises. In both approaches, the conclusion of a deductive inference is necessitated by the premises: the premises can't be true while the conclusion is false. (In Aristotelian logic, the premises in inductive reasoning can also be related in this way to the conclusion
example Valid:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
The picture is above the desk.
The desk is above the floor.
Therefore the picture is above the floor.
Invalid:
Every criminal opposes the government.
Everyone in the opposition party opposes the government.
Therefore everyone in the opposition party is a criminal.
This is invalid because the premises fail to establish commonality between membership in the opposition party and being a criminal. This is the famous fallacy of undistributed middle
Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion, but do not ensure it. It is to ascribe properties or relations to types based on limited observations of particular tokens; or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns. Induction is used, for example, in using specific propositions such as
The ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.
to infer general propositions such as
All ice is cold. or: There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.
I sense though that you are also making attempts to clearify the definition of science
I quote again
Science is defined as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
unquote
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Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya
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I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.
Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.
Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?
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nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude
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We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me
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that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions
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And our capacity to analyse
So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror.
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Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION
After the press becomes so free, then it\s almost impossible to do anything without people screaming
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Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.
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principe
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Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected<
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Searching I do not want to be rude. Nor do I want to lecture you in a blitz on subjects that took me some 6 years to grasp and many more years of experience to perfect.
And I do not want to sound vain either. And I do not want to give you the impression that I try to avoid answering, but I wonder if this reaches an acceptable point
OK, here you go and I quote
In traditional Aristotelian logic, deductive reasoning is inference in which the conclusion is of lesser or equal generality than the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion is of greater generality than the premises. Other theories of logic define deductive reasoning as inference in which the conclusion is just as certain as the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion can have less certainty than the premises. In both approaches, the conclusion of a deductive inference is necessitated by the premises: the premises can't be true while the conclusion is false. (In Aristotelian logic, the premises in inductive reasoning can also be related in this way to the conclusion
example Valid:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
The picture is above the desk.
The desk is above the floor.
Therefore the picture is above the floor.
Invalid:
Every criminal opposes the government.
Everyone in the opposition party opposes the government.
Therefore everyone in the opposition party is a criminal.
This is invalid because the premises fail to establish commonality between membership in the opposition party and being a criminal. This is the famous fallacy of undistributed middle
Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion, but do not ensure it. It is to ascribe properties or relations to types based on limited observations of particular tokens; or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns. Induction is used, for example, in using specific propositions such as
The ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.
to infer general propositions such as
All ice is cold. or: There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.
I sense though that you are also making attempts to clearify the definition of science
I quote again
Science is defined as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
unquote
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Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya
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I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.
Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.
Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?
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nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude
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We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me
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that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions
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And our capacity to analyse
So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror.
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Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION
After the press becomes so free, then it\s almost impossible to do anything without people screaming
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Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.
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Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
Without international interference they would still kill each other there.
Muslims, catholics or orthodox they all tried genocide on one another there.
So then i must assume some peace keeping force would be the only thing that helps in indonesia. Because they would have no interest for one or the other side. You can only trust the Indonesian forces to a certain extend as reports from aceh, timur and what principe says are true. So foreigners should be involved.
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Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
Without international interference they would still kill each other there.
Muslims, catholics or orthodox they all tried genocide on one another there.
So then i must assume some peace keeping force would be the only thing that helps in indonesia. Because they would have no interest for one or the other side. You can only trust the Indonesian forces to a certain extend as reports from aceh, timur and what principe says are true. So foreigners should be involved.
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On 03-11-2005 04:55 searching wrote:
. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
...
. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS.
Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
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a. No doubt . Sure if you only repeating the same arguments.
And other people with diff. opinion is according you a apologist , detective etc .etc
Debat kusir.
b. Never heard of conspiracy ?.
F.E the Tonkin Incident , the reason to begin the Vietnam War.
To me they (the Coker) are premans with certain interest.
They are NOT christian .
And I am NOT Blaming other christian.
c.Yes , it is only yours.Yr Truth.
I cant follow it.
But I still read yr mssg with pleasure.
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On 03-11-2005 04:55 searching wrote:
. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.
...
. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS.
Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.
...
a. No doubt . Sure if you only repeating the same arguments.
And other people with diff. opinion is according you a apologist , detective etc .etc
Debat kusir.
b. Never heard of conspiracy ?.
F.E the Tonkin Incident , the reason to begin the Vietnam War.
To me they (the Coker) are premans with certain interest.
They are NOT christian .
And I am NOT Blaming other christian.
c.Yes , it is only yours.Yr Truth.
I cant follow it.
But I still read yr mssg with pleasure.
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On 03-11-2005 22:15 sascha wrote:
Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
So foreigners should be involved.
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b. YES , sure , they are welcome .
Are you kidding ?? , a bad joke.
They can solve their own problem.
see A. Balkan .
The trouble begin with the involving of outstanders.
And If (BIG IF) , I am sure never, the Indonesian People let foreigners to solve the problems ., what kind of method will they use ?.
With only talking or with force . (read : Killing/ bombing people).
a.See example Irak : The so called civilzed countries (exc. D/F) will free the Iraks , because their leader torture and kill peoples.
And "guess the "liberators are throwing bombs etc. Also Killing people .
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On 03-11-2005 22:15 sascha wrote:
Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
So foreigners should be involved.
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b. YES , sure , they are welcome .
Are you kidding ?? , a bad joke.
They can solve their own problem.
see A. Balkan .
The trouble begin with the involving of outstanders.
And If (BIG IF) , I am sure never, the Indonesian People let foreigners to solve the problems ., what kind of method will they use ?.
With only talking or with force . (read : Killing/ bombing people).
a.See example Irak : The so called civilzed countries (exc. D/F) will free the Iraks , because their leader torture and kill peoples.
And "guess the "liberators are throwing bombs etc. Also Killing people .
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Its not an joke, just an idea.
and please u may know much about indonesia, but u better study some of the history of the balkan conflict.
Its a problem from within, it was a struggle for independence of the former parts of the yugoslavian republic. What have 'outstanders'?!?! to do with that??
Im talking about a peace keeping mission not a war
I think the for example the german troops in kosovo and bosnia do a good job.
the iraq war is a different matter, the colateral damage was used for propaganda. less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.
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Its not an joke, just an idea.
and please u may know much about indonesia, but u better study some of the history of the balkan conflict.
Its a problem from within, it was a struggle for independence of the former parts of the yugoslavian republic. What have 'outstanders'?!?! to do with that??
Im talking about a peace keeping mission not a war
I think the for example the german troops in kosovo and bosnia do a good job.
the iraq war is a different matter, the colateral damage was used for propaganda. less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.
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On 04-11-2005 10:07 sascha wrote:
the iraq war is a different matter,
the colateral damage was used for propaganda.
less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.
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Less people ?? , so be it .
But they throw (big) bombs in cities .Collateral damages , of course .
That is a normal way of going war ? , remember Dresden and other Deutsche Cities at W.W. II . ?? . Less died people , casualties of war .
Their own dead US soldiers etc etc. In name of democrasy ?
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On 04-11-2005 10:07 sascha wrote:
the iraq war is a different matter,
the colateral damage was used for propaganda.
less people died because of the war then under saddams regime. and how many were killed by those sicko insurgents, most of them fellow muslims.
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Less people ?? , so be it .
But they throw (big) bombs in cities .Collateral damages , of course .
That is a normal way of going war ? , remember Dresden and other Deutsche Cities at W.W. II . ?? . Less died people , casualties of war .
Their own dead US soldiers etc etc. In name of democrasy ?
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sidia iraq is totally off topic and has nothing to do with my idea.
i still dont like ur way of discussion.
i just put it as extra point but it was not the main topic we discussed.
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sidia iraq is totally off topic and has nothing to do with my idea.
i still dont like ur way of discussion.
i just put it as extra point but it was not the main topic we discussed.
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O.K.
Indonesia is a sovereign country .
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O.K.
Indonesia is a sovereign country .
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On 01-11-2005 16:33 principe wrote:
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I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
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Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature" 
As we 'human beings' do not have a mobile phone with God we can not ask him why he has revealed him, as for christians, in this way .......
Some say that Jesus himself was a personifacation of God himself for us 'human beings', I myself I do not know ...... I better stick to believing, that is hard enough.
Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.
I also do not accuse, as a christian, 'believers of Islam' that they believe into two/2 'Allah and Mohammed' ......
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On 01-11-2005 16:33 principe wrote:
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I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
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Principe yth. what do you mean by: "polytheistic feature"
As we 'human beings' do not have a mobile phone with God we can not ask him why he has revealed him, as for christians, in this way .......
Some say that Jesus himself was a personifacation of God himself for us 'human beings', I myself I do not know ...... I better stick to believing, that is hard enough.
Christians do not divide God into three/3, you know.
I also do not accuse, as a christian, 'believers of Islam' that they believe into two/2 'Allah and Mohammed' ......
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Principe yth.,
I do not understand you, you made a personal statement 'polytheïstic' and then you answering back by citing somebody else !!!
So, silahkan ......
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Principe yth.,
I do not understand you, you made a personal statement 'polytheïstic' and then you answering back by citing somebody else !!!
So, silahkan ......
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principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 13:10 AnisJ wrote: Principe yth.,
I do not understand you, you made a personal statement polytheïstic and then you answering back by citing somebody else !!!
So, silahkan ...... [/quote]
[quote] I am confused, did I really ? I thought I clearly mentioned that I observed a certain tendency amongst Indonesian Muslims and Christians about the subject. I never gave my personal opinion about the Holy Trinity. Did I give that impression? [/quote][/quote]
You may find far more on the issue in the following link as well...(quite interesting. http://www.answering-islam.org(...)fruit_inspection.htm
I stated to Mr sidia the following:
Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.
And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
to you I wrote:
In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion
I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.
Where did I mention my personal view about the Holy Trinity ? I was expressing views form both camps. The only observation was that these views were opposing eachother and as such it is very debatable if we can talk about the same God (New Testament as this implicates the Holy Trinity) ) for both Muslims and Christians. I did not give my opinion about the Holy Trinity. Not even now.
I wonder, could it be my style of writing that may sidetrack some readers in this forum ? At the same time I notice often reactions by virtue of imminent emotions rather than accurate reading. In my experience emotions often tend to seriously effect accuracy in both reading, writing and debating.
That is why most of the time I notice we (all of us) keep repeating ourselves.
bst rgrds
[/quote]
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principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 13:10 AnisJ wrote: Principe yth.,
I do not understand you, you made a personal statement polytheïstic and then you answering back by citing somebody else !!!
So, silahkan ...... [/quote]
[quote] I am confused, did I really ? I thought I clearly mentioned that I observed a certain tendency amongst Indonesian Muslims and Christians about the subject. I never gave my personal opinion about the Holy Trinity. Did I give that impression? [/quote][/quote]
You may find far more on the issue in the following link as well...(quite interesting. http://www.answering-islam.org(...)fruit_inspection.htm
I stated to Mr sidia the following:
Mr Sidia, this is partly true. This is only true when it comes to the God of the Old Testament The God of Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Daud (David).
When it comes to the God of the New Testament Muslims and Christians differ in opinion. The New Testament God is emboldened in the holy trinity which Muslims explicitly reject.
And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.
to you I wrote:
In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion
I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.
Where did I mention my personal view about the Holy Trinity ? I was expressing views form both camps. The only observation was that these views were opposing eachother and as such it is very debatable if we can talk about the same God (New Testament as this implicates the Holy Trinity) ) for both Muslims and Christians. I did not give my opinion about the Holy Trinity. Not even now.
I wonder, could it be my style of writing that may sidetrack some readers in this forum ? At the same time I notice often reactions by virtue of imminent emotions rather than accurate reading. In my experience emotions often tend to seriously effect accuracy in both reading, writing and debating.
That is why most of the time I notice we (all of us) keep repeating ourselves.
bst rgrds
[/quote]
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 15:18 principe wrote:
...
...
[/quote]
to you I wrote:
In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion
I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.
[/quote] [/quote]
To me , I see no diff. between The God of the O.T and The God of N.T
There is only one God (monotheism)
I think that The God (from O.T) is de the same God of Jesus.(the Father ).
To me is Jesus the Son .
To my logic a Son cannot be the same as the father.
About the Roh Kudus (?) , it is the gift of God to all his childeren .
That is the reason that I think the God of the Jews and The God of the Christians and the God of the Muslim is the same .
Of course I must read the bible carefully .
It is only an opinion , not important enough.
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 15:18 principe wrote:
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...
[/quote]
to you I wrote:
In Indonesia christianity is often "accused" by Indonesian Muslims for incorporating the notion of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This they often see or want to see as three seperate Gods, which would make christianity a Polytheistic religion
I also expressed my curiosity about this Muslim Indonesian view suggesting some hypocrasy.
[/quote] [/quote]
To me , I see no diff. between The God of the O.T and The God of N.T
There is only one God (monotheism)
I think that The God (from O.T) is de the same God of Jesus.(the Father ).
To me is Jesus the Son .
To my logic a Son cannot be the same as the father.
About the Roh Kudus (?) , it is the gift of God to all his childeren .
That is the reason that I think the God of the Jews and The God of the Christians and the God of the Muslim is the same .
Of course I must read the bible carefully .
It is only an opinion , not important enough.
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principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 16:07 sidia wrote:
...
to mr Sidia
I[quote] As I said before I agree with your monotheistic view of christianity. But if you were asked to explain the following. "Jesus our Lord" "Mary mother of God" "Tuhan Yesus" , how would you reply ?
I asked around and some would argue that Jezus was GOD on earth. Through the holy Ghost Jezus was empowered with His will. Some would argue that the Trinity is one and the same as water, vapor and ice. Some would say that the Holy Ghost is the love of God and Jezus the will of God on earth....and many more.
This multi explanation and its less than clear and satisfactory meaning (because of its spiritual meaning I think) is often used by Indonesian Muslims and Muslims in general find prove of its polytheistic nature. [/quote]
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principe
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[quote] On 05-11-2005 16:07 sidia wrote:
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to mr Sidia
I[quote] As I said before I agree with your monotheistic view of christianity. But if you were asked to explain the following. "Jesus our Lord" "Mary mother of God" "Tuhan Yesus" , how would you reply ?
I asked around and some would argue that Jezus was GOD on earth. Through the holy Ghost Jezus was empowered with His will. Some would argue that the Trinity is one and the same as water, vapor and ice. Some would say that the Holy Ghost is the love of God and Jezus the will of God on earth....and many more.
This multi explanation and its less than clear and satisfactory meaning (because of its spiritual meaning I think) is often used by Indonesian Muslims and Muslims in general find prove of its polytheistic nature. [/quote]
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mr principe ;quote :
If you were asked to explain the foll. Jesus Our lord , Mary mother of God , Tuhan Jesus , how would yr reply.
First , I respect if the christian of a part of them If they believe in it .
I am an outstander .
To me , personal , there is only one .
If Jesus have the same God as ther Jews , then it is for me not logic if the followers of Jesus also say Jesus is God (Our Lord , Tuhan Jesus) .
IF so , you have 2 Gods at least .
Maybe because the greece influence ?
BUT that is not to me to judge .
I only have one God , the same of the Jews and the same as the christians .
To Anis : maybe this is my answer abt yr question (other topic) , the diff. between Mohamedaan , and Christenen.
The moslims are not followers of Mohammed.(not their lord).
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mr principe ;quote :
If you were asked to explain the foll. Jesus Our lord , Mary mother of God , Tuhan Jesus , how would yr reply.
First , I respect if the christian of a part of them If they believe in it .
I am an outstander .
To me , personal , there is only one .
If Jesus have the same God as ther Jews , then it is for me not logic if the followers of Jesus also say Jesus is God (Our Lord , Tuhan Jesus) .
IF so , you have 2 Gods at least .
Maybe because the greece influence ?
BUT that is not to me to judge .
I only have one God , the same of the Jews and the same as the christians .
To Anis : maybe this is my answer abt yr question (other topic) , the diff. between Mohamedaan , and Christenen.
The moslims are not followers of Mohammed.(not their lord).
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searching
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Principe I am back,
Thanks for the lecture. Since I am no researcher, I will try to conclude in a simpler sentences of your points:
This is what I found:
"Deductive reasoning" refers to the process of concluding that something must be true because it is a special case of a general principle that is known to be true. For example, if you know the general principle that the sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees, and you have a particular triangle in mind, you can then conclude that the sum of the angles in your triangle is 180 degrees.
Deductive reasoning is logically valid and it is the fundamental method in which mathematical facts are shown to be true.
"Inductive reasoning" (not to be confused with "mathematical induction" or and "inductive proof", which is something quite different) is the process of reasoning that a general principle is true because the special cases you've seen are true. [For example, if all the people you've ever met from a particular town have been very strange, you might then say "all the residents of this town are strange". That is inductive reasoning: constructing a general principle from special cases. It goes in the opposite direction from deductive reasoning.
b]Inductive reasoning is not logically valid. Just because all the people you happen to have met from a town were strange is no guarantee that all the people there are strange. Therefore, this form of reasoning has no part in a mathematical proof.
However, inductive reasoning does play a part in the discovery of mathematical truths. For example, the ancient geometers looked at triangles and noticed that their angle sums were all 180 degrees. After seeing that every triangle they tried to build, no matter what the shape, had an angle sum of 180 degrees, they would have come to the conclusion that this is something that is true of every triangle. Then they would have looked for a way to prove it using deductive reasoning; that is, deduce it as a consequence of other known general properties of triangles.
In summary, then: inductive reasoning is part of the discovery process whereby the observation of special cases leads one to suspect very strongly (though not know with absolute logical certainty) that some general principle is true. Deductive reasoning, on the other hand, is the method you would use to demonstrate with logical certainty that the principle is true.
Both are necessary parts of mathematical thinking. If you just started with the known properties of triangles and played around with them aimlessly using deductive reasoning, it is unlikely you would discover the fact that the angle sum is always 180 degrees (though if you did happen to discover it that way, you'd know it for certain). However, by noticing that it's true in all the examples you've ever seen, inductive reasoning leads you to suspect that this fact is true. Then, once your suspicions have given you a target and a direction for your deductive reasoning, you construct your rigorous logical proof using deductive reasoning.
The "inductive reasoning" mentioned above is nothing to do with the "principle of induction", which says that if you know something is true for the number 1, and if whenever it is true for one number it is also true for the next number, it is then true for every positive integer. Although this principle is a form of reasoning that gets you to a general principle from some individual cases (which is the reason for the name "induction"), it does so in a precise and logically valid way that is really a form of deductive reasoning if viewed in the correct way. When people refer to an "inductive proof", they generally mean a proof that uses the (logically valid) principle of induction, rather than meaning a form of (logically invalid) inductive reasoning in the sense described above.
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well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.
Based on this facts, I wonder, why then you can conclude that the COKER was behind the Soya attacks.
I would love to see how you construct your inductive reasoning based on this. From what I know, since the inductive is not enough to have reasonably right conclusion (because it's from SPECIAL CASES ---> GENERAL ASSUMPTION), then you still need deductive reasoning.
I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.
Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.
Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?
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Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So it's your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that.
I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS.
You said:
We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me
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But how do I conclude that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION when you wrote like this:
The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.
NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.
TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.
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You sounded like stating the facts to me, that's why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!
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And our capacity to analyse
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Can't help to agree with that..with our own logic and not only using inductive approach.
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Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION
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You mean lessen COKER involvement? Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it. Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility?
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Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.
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Agree with it. That's why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source.
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searching
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Principe I am back,
Thanks for the lecture. Since I am no researcher, I will try to conclude in a simpler sentences of your points:
This is what I found:
"Deductive reasoning" refers to the process of concluding that something must be true because it is a special case of a general principle that is known to be true. For example, if you know the general principle that the sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees, and you have a particular triangle in mind, you can then conclude that the sum of the angles in your triangle is 180 degrees.
Deductive reasoning is logically valid and it is the fundamental method in which mathematical facts are shown to be true.
"Inductive reasoning" (not to be confused with "mathematical induction" or and "inductive proof", which is something quite different) is the process of reasoning that a general principle is true because the special cases you've seen are true. [For example, if all the people you've ever met from a particular town have been very strange, you might then say "all the residents of this town are strange". That is inductive reasoning: constructing a general principle from special cases. It goes in the opposite direction from deductive reasoning.
b]Inductive reasoning is not logically valid. Just because all the people you happen to have met from a town were strange is no guarantee that all the people there are strange. Therefore, this form of reasoning has no part in a mathematical proof.
However, inductive reasoning does play a part in the discovery of mathematical truths. For example, the ancient geometers looked at triangles and noticed that their angle sums were all 180 degrees. After seeing that every triangle they tried to build, no matter what the shape, had an angle sum of 180 degrees, they would have come to the conclusion that this is something that is true of every triangle. Then they would have looked for a way to prove it using deductive reasoning; that is, deduce it as a consequence of other known general properties of triangles.
In summary, then: inductive reasoning is part of the discovery process whereby the observation of special cases leads one to suspect very strongly (though not know with absolute logical certainty) that some general principle is true. Deductive reasoning, on the other hand, is the method you would use to demonstrate with logical certainty that the principle is true.
Both are necessary parts of mathematical thinking. If you just started with the known properties of triangles and played around with them aimlessly using deductive reasoning, it is unlikely you would discover the fact that the angle sum is always 180 degrees (though if you did happen to discover it that way, you'd know it for certain). However, by noticing that it's true in all the examples you've ever seen, inductive reasoning leads you to suspect that this fact is true. Then, once your suspicions have given you a target and a direction for your deductive reasoning, you construct your rigorous logical proof using deductive reasoning.
The "inductive reasoning" mentioned above is nothing to do with the "principle of induction", which says that if you know something is true for the number 1, and if whenever it is true for one number it is also true for the next number, it is then true for every positive integer. Although this principle is a form of reasoning that gets you to a general principle from some individual cases (which is the reason for the name "induction"), it does so in a precise and logically valid way that is really a form of deductive reasoning if viewed in the correct way. When people refer to an "inductive proof", they generally mean a proof that uses the (logically valid) principle of induction, rather than meaning a form of (logically invalid) inductive reasoning in the sense described above.
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well, now we will try to make our own logic reasoning based on your facts (inductive approach):
FACTS:
(1) Some articles you read mentioned that COKER was behind the SOYA attack because of money.
(2) The COKER took back their cofession and said they were under pressure.
(3) The COKER are mostly Christians
(4) The SOYA villagers mostly are Christians.
Based on this facts, I wonder, why then you can conclude that the COKER was behind the Soya attacks.
I would love to see how you construct your inductive reasoning based on this. From what I know, since the inductive is not enough to have reasonably right conclusion (because it's from SPECIAL CASES ---> GENERAL ASSUMPTION), then you still need deductive reasoning.
I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.
Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.
Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?
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Well, why you ask me. You are the first who claimed that IT WAS THE COKER WHO DID THE ATTACKS. And you stated it in this thread about the beheading of Three Christian Women. So it's your priviledge to assure me how you construct your "facts" and "truth". I am not the one stating that.
I stated that IT IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THE MOSLEMS ARE BEHIND ALL THE ATTACKS TO CHRISTIANS BASED ON THIS LOGIC:
(1) The victims are Christians mostly.
(2) There are verses in Quran and the Hadits that encourage moslems to terrorize NON BELIEVERS.
And I can prove the facts that I mentioned, that: THE CHRISTIANS MOSTLY ARE VICTIMS OF THE ATTACKS and THERE ARE VERSES IN QURAN AND HADITS THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TERRORIZE NON BELIEVERS.
You said:
We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me
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But how do I conclude that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION when you wrote like this:
The perpetrators wore masks and were clad in Ninja black outfits. Possibly they did not speak during the slayings.
When Desa Soya (maluku) was attacked the same tactics were used. They turned out to be christian gang members (coker) killing their own (including the elder and the very young).
They were collaborating with Kopassus units for the purpose of keeping the sectarian violence on going. The real reason is anyones guess.
It takes training, discipline, and maye a lot of drugs to carry out these sayings in such a cold blooded way. Above all it takes experience in killing this way.
NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators in my opinion you may be close when you look at certain units in military trained environments.
TNI might need again another hot spot to keep the money flowing is just one way of looking at it. But any scenario or combination of it may be valid.
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You sounded like stating the facts to me, that's why I asked you until now and then suddenly I found out that IT'S YOUR OWN OPINION. Quite an enlightment!
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And our capacity to analyse
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Can't help to agree with that..with our own logic and not only using inductive approach.
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Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION
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You mean lessen COKER involvement? Please construct first how you make conclusion. The fact that COKER admitted then took back their confession seems very easy to be accepted in your opinion, then concluding that Laskar Jihad was behind it. Sounds nice. So if anyone confessed then took back their confession, you would still conclude that the someone was guilty. A good point!
And well, MANY ANALYSTS. Can you name them so I can see their credibility?
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Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.
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Agree with it. That's why I ask you to provide RELIABLE SOURCES. I told you earlier, I would not take SABILI or else as a reliable source.
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searching
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Anis,
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I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......
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Principe,
Good that you read www.answeringislam.org as well.
Sidia,
You can ask many things at the site or www.faithfreedom.org
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searching
User
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Anis,
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I also do not accuse, as a christian, believers of Islam that they believe into two/2 Allah and Mohammed ......
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Principe,
Good that you read www.answeringislam.org as well.
Sidia,
You can ask many things at the site or www.faithfreedom.org
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Searcher are you a repeater ?
Is only faithfreedom . com yr source ??
You told me 3 times and also to other people .
Theoritical bla bla is very nice (yr mssg to principe 11.28 ) , but What is yr own opinion ? Yr truth ?
Coba tell it to Sidia with simple words and examples.
(teorie sih boleh , tapi prakteknya mas )
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Searcher are you a repeater ?
Is only faithfreedom . com yr source ??
You told me 3 times and also to other people .
Theoritical bla bla is very nice (yr mssg to principe 11.28 ) , but What is yr own opinion ? Yr truth ?
Coba tell it to Sidia with simple words and examples.
(teorie sih boleh , tapi prakteknya mas )
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I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion; I think you are playing 'hide and seek' my friend, you are not tending to have an 'open discussion' like 'Sid'.
In the Bible there is a warning: "He who 'brings' faith wrongly or misinterptreted will be punished in the seventh prosterity, off course on "purpose" ...... so it is our responsibilty to judge Gods words in the right way .....
In the Christian view God is still God, Yesus is viewed as the representation of Gods son and 'Messiah' ( although some Christians say he was a personifacation of God on earth) the 'Holy Spirit' is the assignment to 'bring and inspire' religion, not more not less .......
Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the 'goodies from the badddies' who will sit on Gods right hand .....
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I am still puzzled what kind of difference(s) people are wanting to see, .....
Principe I do not have to rely on an (supposed Muslim ) to tell me how I must look at my christian religion; I think you are playing 'hide and seek' my friend, you are not tending to have an 'open discussion' like 'Sid'.
In the Bible there is a warning: "He who 'brings' faith wrongly or misinterptreted will be punished in the seventh prosterity, off course on "purpose" ...... so it is our responsibilty to judge Gods words in the right way .....
In the Christian view God is still God, Yesus is viewed as the representation of Gods son and 'Messiah' ( although some Christians say he was a personifacation of God on earth) the 'Holy Spirit' is the assignment to 'bring and inspire' religion, not more not less .......
Like I have said before I do not have a mobile phone with God to ask him why he has revealed himself in this way ...........
Mary was/is for Christian Protestants, a woman who gave birth to Jesus .... not more not less .......
There is no division of God of the Old Test. or New one ........
Yesus said that he was the last prophet, after him there will be no other ......
he will only come back to make the final closure: dealing with the devil and decide the 'goodies from the badddies' who will sit on Gods right hand .....
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principe
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