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Eight FPI members arrested for carrying sharp weapons JAKARTA - Eight members of the "Islam Defenders Front" (FPI) have been apprehended by West Jakarta police for carrying sharp weapons during a rally in front of the West Jakarta Police precinct on Tuesday. Some 150 FPI members were protesting the slow pace of investigations into a clash between their group and residents of the Kalijodo red-light district in West Jakarta last Sunday, in which four FPI members were injured.

About 50 vigilantes from a group calling itself the Surakarta Muslim Coalition participate in an anti-vice raid in the Pring Kuning area of Surakarta, Central Java. During the raid early on Tuesday morning, they forced vendors to destroy hundreds of bottles of hard liquor. The coalition is well-known for its regular raids on the vendors of alcoholic beverages every Ramadhan.
About 50 vigilantes from a group calling itself the Surakarta Muslim Coalition participate in an anti-vice raid in the Pring Kuning area of Surakarta, Central Java. During the raid early on Tuesday morning, they forced vendors to destroy hundreds of bottles of hard liquor. The coalition is well-known for its regular raids on the vendors of alcoholic beverages every Ramadhan.
"I am very disappointed with the FPI protesters as we found them carrying weapons during their rally," West Jakarta Police precinct chief Sr. Comr. Saparuddin told reporters. At least 30 protesters were found carrying weapons, including spears, machetes, swords and sickles, but only eight were declared suspects and detained. The rest were released after being lectured by police officers. According to Emergency Law No. 12/1951, civilians are not permitted to carry weapons in public places.

"We have sent the suspects to City police headquarters for further questioning," Saparuddin said. FPI members often carry weapons during rallies, but Tuesday's arrest was the first ever against the group. Donned in white attire, FPI members arrived at the police precinct on Jl. S. Parman at 10:30 a.m. Police allowed them to hold their protest in front of compound. Shortly after, police searched the protesters and found the weapons.

FPI secretary Mahmud Nasution, who took part in the rally, said that his organization did not order the protesters to carry weapons during the rally. "We did not anticipate this incident. We never tell our members to carry weapons during rallies. That's why we are allowing the police to further process the suspects in accordance with the prevailing regulations," Mahmud said.

FPI, which has become notorious for its raids against nightclubs and entertainment centers during the fasting month of Ramadhan over the past five years, was caught up in a clash with residents of Kalijodo early on Sunday morning when they raided bars, nightclubs and massage parlors in the area. Four FPI members were injured during the incident. Sunday's clash was the second for the FPI, with its members also involved in a clash with residents of Jembatan Besi in West Jakarta last Friday.

According to Bylaw No. 10/2004 on tourism, nightclubs, saunas, discotheques, massage parlors, amusement centers and bars must closed during Ramadhan, which this year finishes on Nov. 2. There are at least 1,235 registered entertainment centers across the capital, employing some 50,000 people. Commenting on the string of raids made by the FPI, Jakarta Police spokesman Sr. Comr. I Ketut Untung Yoga Ana said police chief Insp. Gen. Firman Gani had instructed all chiefs of police precincts to take sterner action against groups launching raids against entertainment centers during the fasting month.

"We have taken persuasive approaches to several groups in the community in order to prevent such raids, but it seems that a few groups have been ignoring our warnings. That's why we'll take stern action," he said.



Posted in Ramadan @ 19 October 2005 07:38 CET by Jeroen · 'Blog' RSS feed · permalink





kiwimave
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When is the Indon government getting serious putting those wannabe-terrorists behinds bars??



kiwimave
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When is the Indon government getting serious putting those wannabe-terrorists behinds bars??



kiwimave
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When is the Indon government getting serious putting those wannabe-terrorists behinds bars??



kiwimave
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When is the Indon government getting serious putting those wannabe-terrorists behinds bars??



papaya
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Criminals, thats what they are! Emoticon: Angry



papaya
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Criminals, thats what they are! Emoticon: Angry



papaya
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Criminals, thats what they are! Emoticon: Angry



papaya
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Criminals, thats what they are! Emoticon: Angry



Agung
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Agung
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Agung
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Agung
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sidia
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I can can understand that an Ormas (organisasi masa) get her richt to demonstrate because they have democracy in indonesia.

But I am not agree about some methods en sometimes also with violence against others.

If someone or groups broke the law , they must be prosecuted.




sidia
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I can can understand that an Ormas (organisasi masa) get her richt to demonstrate because they have democracy in indonesia.

But I am not agree about some methods en sometimes also with violence against others.

If someone or groups broke the law , they must be prosecuted.




sidia
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I can can understand that an Ormas (organisasi masa) get her richt to demonstrate because they have democracy in indonesia.

But I am not agree about some methods en sometimes also with violence against others.

If someone or groups broke the law , they must be prosecuted.




sidia
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User icon of sidia
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I can can understand that an Ormas (organisasi masa) get her richt to demonstrate because they have democracy in indonesia.

But I am not agree about some methods en sometimes also with violence against others.

If someone or groups broke the law , they must be prosecuted.




aponto
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Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),it's not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you don't live there.
Regards
Aponto



aponto
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Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),it's not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you don't live there.
Regards
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),it's not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you don't live there.
Regards
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),it's not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you don't live there.
Regards
Aponto



Agung
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Agung
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Agung
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Agung
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johny251976
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Dear Aponto,

I live in Indonesia and I think FPI is a criminal and terorizing organization that needs to be banned. They don't have any right to terorrize the people by using the name "Ummah"

Sidia,

I believe we should differentiate demonstrating and terorrizing, bro. They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ




johny251976
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Dear Aponto,

I live in Indonesia and I think FPI is a criminal and terorizing organization that needs to be banned. They don't have any right to terorrize the people by using the name "Ummah"

Sidia,

I believe we should differentiate demonstrating and terorrizing, bro. They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ




johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Aponto,

I live in Indonesia and I think FPI is a criminal and terorizing organization that needs to be banned. They don't have any right to terorrize the people by using the name "Ummah"

Sidia,

I believe we should differentiate demonstrating and terorrizing, bro. They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ




johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Aponto,

I live in Indonesia and I think FPI is a criminal and terorizing organization that needs to be banned. They don't have any right to terorrize the people by using the name "Ummah"

Sidia,

I believe we should differentiate demonstrating and terorrizing, bro. They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ




zieleffe
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zieleffe
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zieleffe
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zieleffe
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sidia
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On 20-10-2005 11:28 johny251976 wrote:
They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ


see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc.

I think the govt know what the problem is maybe because of political reason they tolerated them.
But this is only the humble opinion of a golongan pengecap.

Agung :
it is not only the matter of fairness but also ignorancy .



sidia
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On 20-10-2005 11:28 johny251976 wrote:
They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ


see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc.

I think the govt know what the problem is maybe because of political reason they tolerated them.
But this is only the humble opinion of a golongan pengecap.

Agung :
it is not only the matter of fairness but also ignorancy .



sidia
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User icon of sidia
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On 20-10-2005 11:28 johny251976 wrote:
They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ


see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc.

I think the govt know what the problem is maybe because of political reason they tolerated them.
But this is only the humble opinion of a golongan pengecap.

Agung :
it is not only the matter of fairness but also ignorancy .



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 20-10-2005 11:28 johny251976 wrote:
They are "legal terorrists" and I wonder why our government close their eyes to them.

WJ


see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc.

I think the govt know what the problem is maybe because of political reason they tolerated them.
But this is only the humble opinion of a golongan pengecap.

Agung :
it is not only the matter of fairness but also ignorancy .



aponto
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Dear All,
I do appreciate your contributions in this ftp discuss.
But you know,in moslim countries,these days,like in mine,if a very small group with different interpretations and incorrect actions,are called terrorists.
sorry ya ,but I find it hard to join this populistic opinion.
In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way.
Akseptasi
Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
Aponto



aponto
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Dear All,
I do appreciate your contributions in this ftp discuss.
But you know,in moslim countries,these days,like in mine,if a very small group with different interpretations and incorrect actions,are called terrorists.
sorry ya ,but I find it hard to join this populistic opinion.
In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way.
Akseptasi
Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear All,
I do appreciate your contributions in this ftp discuss.
But you know,in moslim countries,these days,like in mine,if a very small group with different interpretations and incorrect actions,are called terrorists.
sorry ya ,but I find it hard to join this populistic opinion.
In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way.
Akseptasi
Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear All,
I do appreciate your contributions in this ftp discuss.
But you know,in moslim countries,these days,like in mine,if a very small group with different interpretations and incorrect actions,are called terrorists.
sorry ya ,but I find it hard to join this populistic opinion.
In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way.
Akseptasi
Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
Aponto



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Sidia,

you said:
"see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc."

What I mean by my comments is that they love to terrorize other people. For example:
(1) Not that I like night life, But they have no right to come there with sticks to beat the people there. Are they police? NO. Brother Sid, we have laws and regulation here, and they BROKE it.
(2) They busted and terrorized Churches and the Christians.

If you notice, even the liberalists like Gus Dur has been fed up with their action. And of course is the minority here.

Dear Aponto,

you said:
"In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way."

But FPI doesn't only think differently. They do physical harm and it affects daily life OF THE MINORITY HERE and the parties they treat AS ENEMY.
I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Sidia,

you said:
"see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc."

What I mean by my comments is that they love to terrorize other people. For example:
(1) Not that I like night life, But they have no right to come there with sticks to beat the people there. Are they police? NO. Brother Sid, we have laws and regulation here, and they BROKE it.
(2) They busted and terrorized Churches and the Christians.

If you notice, even the liberalists like Gus Dur has been fed up with their action. And of course is the minority here.

Dear Aponto,

you said:
"In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way."

But FPI doesn't only think differently. They do physical harm and it affects daily life OF THE MINORITY HERE and the parties they treat AS ENEMY.
I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Sidia,

you said:
"see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc."

What I mean by my comments is that they love to terrorize other people. For example:
(1) Not that I like night life, But they have no right to come there with sticks to beat the people there. Are they police? NO. Brother Sid, we have laws and regulation here, and they BROKE it.
(2) They busted and terrorized Churches and the Christians.

If you notice, even the liberalists like Gus Dur has been fed up with their action. And of course is the minority here.

Dear Aponto,

you said:
"In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way."

But FPI doesn't only think differently. They do physical harm and it affects daily life OF THE MINORITY HERE and the parties they treat AS ENEMY.
I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Dear Sidia,

you said:
"see my comment : If someone or group broke the law --- they must be prosecuted.
Are they legal or are they illegal and what is the defenition of terrorist .?
Because some people in Indonesia think they need them to counter the corruption( KKN ), the sell out of Indonesia , and to defend the Indonesian standard / values etc."

What I mean by my comments is that they love to terrorize other people. For example:
(1) Not that I like night life, But they have no right to come there with sticks to beat the people there. Are they police? NO. Brother Sid, we have laws and regulation here, and they BROKE it.
(2) They busted and terrorized Churches and the Christians.

If you notice, even the liberalists like Gus Dur has been fed up with their action. And of course is the minority here.

Dear Aponto,

you said:
"In every country ,there are groups ya,who think differently.
I don't think it will affect daily life here in dramatic way."

But FPI doesn't only think differently. They do physical harm and it affects daily life OF THE MINORITY HERE and the parties they treat AS ENEMY.
I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?

WJ



Agung
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what is the definition of terrorist .?
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.



Agung
User
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what is the definition of terrorist .?
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


what is the definition of terrorist .?
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


what is the definition of terrorist .?
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.



sidia
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Is yr defenition only regarding f.e the FPI (or other Muslim) ?

Because , there are many groups , even so called civilced countries did the same or even worst.

The I.C.C at the hague holland must prosecuted them.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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Is yr defenition only regarding f.e the FPI (or other Muslim) ?

Because , there are many groups , even so called civilced countries did the same or even worst.

The I.C.C at the hague holland must prosecuted them.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Is yr defenition only regarding f.e the FPI (or other Muslim) ?

Because , there are many groups , even so called civilced countries did the same or even worst.

The I.C.C at the hague holland must prosecuted them.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Is yr defenition only regarding f.e the FPI (or other Muslim) ?

Because , there are many groups , even so called civilced countries did the same or even worst.

The I.C.C at the hague holland must prosecuted them.



Agung
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User icon of Agung
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Hi Sidia,
no, I tried to make a definition that should apply in general. Anyone who has a better idea: please help me!

Yes, the conclusion must be that quite a few "civilized" counties have at least something to explain in the Hague.

Why do you think the USA does not like the I.C.C. very much?




Agung
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Hi Sidia,
no, I tried to make a definition that should apply in general. Anyone who has a better idea: please help me!

Yes, the conclusion must be that quite a few "civilized" counties have at least something to explain in the Hague.

Why do you think the USA does not like the I.C.C. very much?




Agung
User
User icon of Agung
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Hi Sidia,
no, I tried to make a definition that should apply in general. Anyone who has a better idea: please help me!

Yes, the conclusion must be that quite a few "civilized" counties have at least something to explain in the Hague.

Why do you think the USA does not like the I.C.C. very much?




Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Sidia,
no, I tried to make a definition that should apply in general. Anyone who has a better idea: please help me!

Yes, the conclusion must be that quite a few "civilized" counties have at least something to explain in the Hague.

Why do you think the USA does not like the I.C.C. very much?




aponto
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spacer line
 

Dear Johny 25..,


If you don't mind but I give no further comment concerning this topic.
No hard feelings and it's obvious that we have different views on this issue.
Oh by the way ,I almost forgot to answer your question :
""I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?""
To be short : I'm prowd to be an Indonesian and if you like to know where I was born ,raised ,etc.,please let me know,I will be happy to give you more info.
Sekian
Aponto




aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear Johny 25..,


If you don't mind but I give no further comment concerning this topic.
No hard feelings and it's obvious that we have different views on this issue.
Oh by the way ,I almost forgot to answer your question :
""I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?""
To be short : I'm prowd to be an Indonesian and if you like to know where I was born ,raised ,etc.,please let me know,I will be happy to give you more info.
Sekian
Aponto




aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear Johny 25..,


If you don't mind but I give no further comment concerning this topic.
No hard feelings and it's obvious that we have different views on this issue.
Oh by the way ,I almost forgot to answer your question :
""I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?""
To be short : I'm prowd to be an Indonesian and if you like to know where I was born ,raised ,etc.,please let me know,I will be happy to give you more info.
Sekian
Aponto




aponto
User
spacer line
 

Dear Johny 25..,


If you don't mind but I give no further comment concerning this topic.
No hard feelings and it's obvious that we have different views on this issue.
Oh by the way ,I almost forgot to answer your question :
""I think you are not an Indonesian, aren't you? Are you a Malaysian?""
To be short : I'm prowd to be an Indonesian and if you like to know where I was born ,raised ,etc.,please let me know,I will be happy to give you more info.
Sekian
Aponto




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 21-10-2005 05:06 johny251976 wrote:

Are they police? NO.
WJ


NO , I agree.
But some times they act as police , in case the police failed.
And the common people (poor) ask them for help .
For example someone with money opened a rumah gembira (disko annex karaoke , panti pijat +++ etc ) and WITHOUT permit .As you know it bhappened almost everywhere.
The authorities dont help the people , and guess who came in action ??
What happened at regio Puncak ?

For the dutchies : what can happened if in the province where people lives with strong faith and someone opened a club /whorehouse for example in Staphorst : open 7 days a week (incl. Sunday).




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 21-10-2005 05:06 johny251976 wrote:

Are they police? NO.
WJ


NO , I agree.
But some times they act as police , in case the police failed.
And the common people (poor) ask them for help .
For example someone with money opened a rumah gembira (disko annex karaoke , panti pijat +++ etc ) and WITHOUT permit .As you know it bhappened almost everywhere.
The authorities dont help the people , and guess who came in action ??
What happened at regio Puncak ?

For the dutchies : what can happened if in the province where people lives with strong faith and someone opened a club /whorehouse for example in Staphorst : open 7 days a week (incl. Sunday).




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 21-10-2005 05:06 johny251976 wrote:

Are they police? NO.
WJ


NO , I agree.
But some times they act as police , in case the police failed.
And the common people (poor) ask them for help .
For example someone with money opened a rumah gembira (disko annex karaoke , panti pijat +++ etc ) and WITHOUT permit .As you know it bhappened almost everywhere.
The authorities dont help the people , and guess who came in action ??
What happened at regio Puncak ?

For the dutchies : what can happened if in the province where people lives with strong faith and someone opened a club /whorehouse for example in Staphorst : open 7 days a week (incl. Sunday).




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 21-10-2005 05:06 johny251976 wrote:

Are they police? NO.
WJ


NO , I agree.
But some times they act as police , in case the police failed.
And the common people (poor) ask them for help .
For example someone with money opened a rumah gembira (disko annex karaoke , panti pijat +++ etc ) and WITHOUT permit .As you know it bhappened almost everywhere.
The authorities dont help the people , and guess who came in action ??
What happened at regio Puncak ?

For the dutchies : what can happened if in the province where people lives with strong faith and someone opened a club /whorehouse for example in Staphorst : open 7 days a week (incl. Sunday).




kiwimave
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Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they don't try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion



kiwimave
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Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they don't try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion



kiwimave
User
User icon of kiwimave
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Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they don't try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion



kiwimave
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User icon of kiwimave
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Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they don't try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion



AnisJ
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User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:44


On 19-10-2005 18:45 aponto wrote:
Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),its not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you dont live there.
Regards
Aponto


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:44


On 19-10-2005 18:45 aponto wrote:
Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),its not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you dont live there.
Regards
Aponto


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:44


On 19-10-2005 18:45 aponto wrote:
Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),its not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you dont live there.
Regards
Aponto


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:44


On 19-10-2005 18:45 aponto wrote:
Dear Readers,
I have only one question about your msgges.Do you live in Indonesia?
As you know (I hope you do ),its not fair to talk about daily life
in Indo if you dont live there.
Regards
Aponto


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:59


On 21-10-2005 12:02 Agung wrote:

...
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.


I think your analyse(s) are incomplete, what about people who are misled/brainwashed by others, mostly 'masterminds' or who are forced to do so (terrorizing others) ....
I think some 'powerful groups inside INDOnesia' use these people for their purpose(s) to 'camouflage' their position and to draw away the overall opinion by 'the man in the street', from the reel social problems of INDOnesia today .....



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
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(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:59


On 21-10-2005 12:02 Agung wrote:

...
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.


I think your analyse(s) are incomplete, what about people who are misled/brainwashed by others, mostly 'masterminds' or who are forced to do so (terrorizing others) ....
I think some 'powerful groups inside INDOnesia' use these people for their purpose(s) to 'camouflage' their position and to draw away the overall opinion by 'the man in the street', from the reel social problems of INDOnesia today .....



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:59


On 21-10-2005 12:02 Agung wrote:

...
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.


I think your analyse(s) are incomplete, what about people who are misled/brainwashed by others, mostly 'masterminds' or who are forced to do so (terrorizing others) ....
I think some 'powerful groups inside INDOnesia' use these people for their purpose(s) to 'camouflage' their position and to draw away the overall opinion by 'the man in the street', from the reel social problems of INDOnesia today .....



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 22 October 2005 14:59


On 21-10-2005 12:02 Agung wrote:

...
In my view:
People who use violence against others or who threaten to use it or advise others to use violence.
And, are guided by a political view, religious idea or whatever, but not by primarily by direct personal gain.
And, there is no clear relation between terrorist and victim or behaviour of the victim.

From this I would say the behaviour of the FPI falls in the category terrorists.


I think your analyse(s) are incomplete, what about people who are misled/brainwashed by others, mostly 'masterminds' or who are forced to do so (terrorizing others) ....
I think some 'powerful groups inside INDOnesia' use these people for their purpose(s) to 'camouflage' their position and to draw away the overall opinion by 'the man in the street', from the reel social problems of INDOnesia today .....



aponto
User
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 14:44 AnisJ wrote:

...


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......

.......................................................................................................................................
AnisJ yth.

It's not a matter of liking or not.
I even think that criticism belongs to life.
But we also have the freedom to end a discussion ,whether it is virtual or
in real life.Never ending discussions might affect an atmosphere.
I think it's not worth it.
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 14:44 AnisJ wrote:

...


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......

.......................................................................................................................................
AnisJ yth.

It's not a matter of liking or not.
I even think that criticism belongs to life.
But we also have the freedom to end a discussion ,whether it is virtual or
in real life.Never ending discussions might affect an atmosphere.
I think it's not worth it.
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 14:44 AnisJ wrote:

...


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......

.......................................................................................................................................
AnisJ yth.

It's not a matter of liking or not.
I even think that criticism belongs to life.
But we also have the freedom to end a discussion ,whether it is virtual or
in real life.Never ending discussions might affect an atmosphere.
I think it's not worth it.
Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 14:44 AnisJ wrote:

...


Aponto yth.,

With Democracy, there is criticism, whether you like it or not .......

.......................................................................................................................................
AnisJ yth.

It's not a matter of liking or not.
I even think that criticism belongs to life.
But we also have the freedom to end a discussion ,whether it is virtual or
in real life.Never ending discussions might affect an atmosphere.
I think it's not worth it.
Aponto



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 

Aponto yth.,

Why is it 'a never ending discussion' and why stop it, it just had started ....... Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
Like they say: Living means pleasant thing(s) but .... also unpleasant !!!



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 

Aponto yth.,

Why is it 'a never ending discussion' and why stop it, it just had started ....... Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
Like they say: Living means pleasant thing(s) but .... also unpleasant !!!



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 

Aponto yth.,

Why is it 'a never ending discussion' and why stop it, it just had started ....... Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
Like they say: Living means pleasant thing(s) but .... also unpleasant !!!



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 

Aponto yth.,

Why is it 'a never ending discussion' and why stop it, it just had started ....... Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
Like they say: Living means pleasant thing(s) but .... also unpleasant !!!



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Anisj yth,

cukup begini.

Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Anisj yth,

cukup begini.

Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Anisj yth,

cukup begini.

Aponto



aponto
User
spacer line
 

Anisj yth,

cukup begini.

Aponto



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
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On 22-10-2005 12:55 kiwimave wrote:
Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they dont try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion


Kiwim. :
Are you serious ask to Sidia , or is it a rhetorical question ?
A normal person will say NO , No att all . Not rumah gembira and Not a Criminal Pesantren ( Pesantren = school).
Sidia is normal (mostly) , the answer is big NO.

b.Are jou coming from another planet or from a copuntry without law , rules ?
I am living in Holland , a small but nice beautiful country in West Europe , close to the North Sea.
They have a strange phenomena , so called GEDOGEN.
It means they have rules, law etc , but they donot enforce it if people broke the rules.
And they say about them self , we have big tolerancy.
But if the situation get wrong , SERIOUSLY WRONG , then they begin to act .
And say : DE BEUK ERIN.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 12:55 kiwimave wrote:
Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they dont try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion


Kiwim. :
Are you serious ask to Sidia , or is it a rhetorical question ?
A normal person will say NO , No att all . Not rumah gembira and Not a Criminal Pesantren ( Pesantren = school).
Sidia is normal (mostly) , the answer is big NO.

b.Are jou coming from another planet or from a copuntry without law , rules ?
I am living in Holland , a small but nice beautiful country in West Europe , close to the North Sea.
They have a strange phenomena , so called GEDOGEN.
It means they have rules, law etc , but they donot enforce it if people broke the rules.
And they say about them self , we have big tolerancy.
But if the situation get wrong , SERIOUSLY WRONG , then they begin to act .
And say : DE BEUK ERIN.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 12:55 kiwimave wrote:
Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they dont try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion


Kiwim. :
Are you serious ask to Sidia , or is it a rhetorical question ?
A normal person will say NO , No att all . Not rumah gembira and Not a Criminal Pesantren ( Pesantren = school).
Sidia is normal (mostly) , the answer is big NO.

b.Are jou coming from another planet or from a copuntry without law , rules ?
I am living in Holland , a small but nice beautiful country in West Europe , close to the North Sea.
They have a strange phenomena , so called GEDOGEN.
It means they have rules, law etc , but they donot enforce it if people broke the rules.
And they say about them self , we have big tolerancy.
But if the situation get wrong , SERIOUSLY WRONG , then they begin to act .
And say : DE BEUK ERIN.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 22-10-2005 12:55 kiwimave wrote:
Hey Sidia, just ask to yourself: Do you rather want a place where they drink, gamble or have paid sex in your area or a pesantran where they possibly create hatred, terrorists and murderers?

You can say many bad things about rumah gembira, but at least if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, they dont try to kill you because you have a different opinion or religion


Kiwim. :
Are you serious ask to Sidia , or is it a rhetorical question ?
A normal person will say NO , No att all . Not rumah gembira and Not a Criminal Pesantren ( Pesantren = school).
Sidia is normal (mostly) , the answer is big NO.

b.Are jou coming from another planet or from a copuntry without law , rules ?
I am living in Holland , a small but nice beautiful country in West Europe , close to the North Sea.
They have a strange phenomena , so called GEDOGEN.
It means they have rules, law etc , but they donot enforce it if people broke the rules.
And they say about them self , we have big tolerancy.
But if the situation get wrong , SERIOUSLY WRONG , then they begin to act .
And say : DE BEUK ERIN.




johny251976
User
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 24 October 2005 04:47

Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.
Let's talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think it's a Novena Prayer).
And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I don't see a connection with what happened in Netherland.

Dear Aponto,
I have my reason to ask if you are an Indonesian.


Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
.

This is not a good structured Indonesian language.
So I think of several explanation about that:
1) an Indonesian tried to make a joke by using a very bad Indonesian language.
2) an Indonesian who is not here since may be a little kid.
3) a Malaysian (because they have somewhat different term, so I assume also structure).
4) a foreigner who happens to know Indonesian.
So, I ask you the third question.

And no, I don't want to probe to your own life, so relax, I will not ask where you come from or else.

WJ





johny251976
User
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 24 October 2005 04:47

Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.
Let's talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think it's a Novena Prayer).
And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I don't see a connection with what happened in Netherland.

Dear Aponto,
I have my reason to ask if you are an Indonesian.


Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
.

This is not a good structured Indonesian language.
So I think of several explanation about that:
1) an Indonesian tried to make a joke by using a very bad Indonesian language.
2) an Indonesian who is not here since may be a little kid.
3) a Malaysian (because they have somewhat different term, so I assume also structure).
4) a foreigner who happens to know Indonesian.
So, I ask you the third question.

And no, I don't want to probe to your own life, so relax, I will not ask where you come from or else.

WJ





johny251976
User
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 24 October 2005 04:47

Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.
Let's talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think it's a Novena Prayer).
And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I don't see a connection with what happened in Netherland.

Dear Aponto,
I have my reason to ask if you are an Indonesian.


Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
.

This is not a good structured Indonesian language.
So I think of several explanation about that:
1) an Indonesian tried to make a joke by using a very bad Indonesian language.
2) an Indonesian who is not here since may be a little kid.
3) a Malaysian (because they have somewhat different term, so I assume also structure).
4) a foreigner who happens to know Indonesian.
So, I ask you the third question.

And no, I don't want to probe to your own life, so relax, I will not ask where you come from or else.

WJ





johny251976
User
spacer line
 
(Edited) Posted @ 24 October 2005 04:47

Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.
Let's talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think it's a Novena Prayer).
And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I don't see a connection with what happened in Netherland.

Dear Aponto,
I have my reason to ask if you are an Indonesian.


Sekali lagi,terimah kasih di muka berita.
.

This is not a good structured Indonesian language.
So I think of several explanation about that:
1) an Indonesian tried to make a joke by using a very bad Indonesian language.
2) an Indonesian who is not here since may be a little kid.
3) a Malaysian (because they have somewhat different term, so I assume also structure).
4) a foreigner who happens to know Indonesian.
So, I ask you the third question.

And no, I don't want to probe to your own life, so relax, I will not ask where you come from or else.

WJ





sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 24-10-2005 04:47 johny251976 wrote:
Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.

Lets talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think its a Novena Prayer).

And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I dont see a connection with what happened in Netherland.


...
.


Of course the police dont ask them for help , but the poor people are asking the FPI or other groups for help because the police / law failed.


Abt the problems with church etc, I agree , somethinh wrong happened.
That is why I always saying pls respect the Law , NKRI and PancaSila etc.

The connection with Belanda is I am trying to explain mr kiwimave and the other belandas users that the indonesian govt. can do nothing without evidence . In Belanda we have the same situation , the govt . cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
It is not an excuse for the trouble in indonesia but to explain that even civilized countries have the almost same problems.
They must go to court and act by law



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 24-10-2005 04:47 johny251976 wrote:
Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.

Lets talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think its a Novena Prayer).

And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I dont see a connection with what happened in Netherland.


...
.


Of course the police dont ask them for help , but the poor people are asking the FPI or other groups for help because the police / law failed.


Abt the problems with church etc, I agree , somethinh wrong happened.
That is why I always saying pls respect the Law , NKRI and PancaSila etc.

The connection with Belanda is I am trying to explain mr kiwimave and the other belandas users that the indonesian govt. can do nothing without evidence . In Belanda we have the same situation , the govt . cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
It is not an excuse for the trouble in indonesia but to explain that even civilized countries have the almost same problems.
They must go to court and act by law



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 24-10-2005 04:47 johny251976 wrote:
Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.

Lets talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think its a Novena Prayer).

And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I dont see a connection with what happened in Netherland.


...
.


Of course the police dont ask them for help , but the poor people are asking the FPI or other groups for help because the police / law failed.


Abt the problems with church etc, I agree , somethinh wrong happened.
That is why I always saying pls respect the Law , NKRI and PancaSila etc.

The connection with Belanda is I am trying to explain mr kiwimave and the other belandas users that the indonesian govt. can do nothing without evidence . In Belanda we have the same situation , the govt . cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
It is not an excuse for the trouble in indonesia but to explain that even civilized countries have the almost same problems.
They must go to court and act by law



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 24-10-2005 04:47 johny251976 wrote:
Dear Sid,

Still they are not police and POLICE NEVER ASKS THEM TO.
May be if you think about the nite club then you can justify their wrongdoing.

Lets talk more about the Church persecution. FPI and AGAP CLOSED FORCEFULLY at least 23 churches last month.
And in addition, just recently (I think around 11 October), they busted A HOUSE where some CATHOLICS were doing the prayer! (I think its a Novena Prayer).

And sorry, Sid, we are talking about our beloved Indonesia, not other country. So I dont see a connection with what happened in Netherland.


...
.


Of course the police dont ask them for help , but the poor people are asking the FPI or other groups for help because the police / law failed.


Abt the problems with church etc, I agree , somethinh wrong happened.
That is why I always saying pls respect the Law , NKRI and PancaSila etc.

The connection with Belanda is I am trying to explain mr kiwimave and the other belandas users that the indonesian govt. can do nothing without evidence . In Belanda we have the same situation , the govt . cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
It is not an excuse for the trouble in indonesia but to explain that even civilized countries have the almost same problems.
They must go to court and act by law



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


In Belanda we have the same situation, the govt . Cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
As a matter of fact, they are not able to prosecute without enough legally obtained evidence. We've had quite a few examples where they had evidence against terrorists, but they were not allowed to use it, because it didn't fit all legal requirements.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


In Belanda we have the same situation, the govt . Cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
As a matter of fact, they are not able to prosecute without enough legally obtained evidence. We've had quite a few examples where they had evidence against terrorists, but they were not allowed to use it, because it didn't fit all legal requirements.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


In Belanda we have the same situation, the govt . Cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
As a matter of fact, they are not able to prosecute without enough legally obtained evidence. We've had quite a few examples where they had evidence against terrorists, but they were not allowed to use it, because it didn't fit all legal requirements.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 


In Belanda we have the same situation, the govt . Cannot prosecuted because they have not enough evidence.
As a matter of fact, they are not able to prosecute without enough legally obtained evidence. We've had quite a few examples where they had evidence against terrorists, but they were not allowed to use it, because it didn't fit all legal requirements.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Agung :
I think it is not a matter of enough llegally obtained evidence .
It is a matter of Legal or Illegal obtained evidence.
I am 100 % sure to get evidence from the accused if you torture him.
If necessary to death.
But the evidence will be rejected by the court.

Or people can choose : The means justified the cause.
And Forget the democracy , humanrights etc.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Agung :
I think it is not a matter of enough llegally obtained evidence .
It is a matter of Legal or Illegal obtained evidence.
I am 100 % sure to get evidence from the accused if you torture him.
If necessary to death.
But the evidence will be rejected by the court.

Or people can choose : The means justified the cause.
And Forget the democracy , humanrights etc.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Agung :
I think it is not a matter of enough llegally obtained evidence .
It is a matter of Legal or Illegal obtained evidence.
I am 100 % sure to get evidence from the accused if you torture him.
If necessary to death.
But the evidence will be rejected by the court.

Or people can choose : The means justified the cause.
And Forget the democracy , humanrights etc.




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Agung :
I think it is not a matter of enough llegally obtained evidence .
It is a matter of Legal or Illegal obtained evidence.
I am 100 % sure to get evidence from the accused if you torture him.
If necessary to death.
But the evidence will be rejected by the court.

Or people can choose : The means justified the cause.
And Forget the democracy , humanrights etc.




Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Sidia,
in Holland the evidence that was not legal was mostly evidence that was obtained by the secret service. They were not able to show their information in court due to its confidentiality. Another example of illegal evidence is: information from a phone tap before getting a permit to make the tap.

Evidence from torture: useless and inhumane. Within five minutes I'll swear that I'm a pink kangaroo, if you want me to. Emoticon: Smile



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Sidia,
in Holland the evidence that was not legal was mostly evidence that was obtained by the secret service. They were not able to show their information in court due to its confidentiality. Another example of illegal evidence is: information from a phone tap before getting a permit to make the tap.

Evidence from torture: useless and inhumane. Within five minutes I'll swear that I'm a pink kangaroo, if you want me to. Emoticon: Smile



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Sidia,
in Holland the evidence that was not legal was mostly evidence that was obtained by the secret service. They were not able to show their information in court due to its confidentiality. Another example of illegal evidence is: information from a phone tap before getting a permit to make the tap.

Evidence from torture: useless and inhumane. Within five minutes I'll swear that I'm a pink kangaroo, if you want me to. Emoticon: Smile



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Sidia,
in Holland the evidence that was not legal was mostly evidence that was obtained by the secret service. They were not able to show their information in court due to its confidentiality. Another example of illegal evidence is: information from a phone tap before getting a permit to make the tap.

Evidence from torture: useless and inhumane. Within five minutes I'll swear that I'm a pink kangaroo, if you want me to. Emoticon: Smile



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Agung,

Is in Holland the use of lie detector has been legalized?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Agung,

Is in Holland the use of lie detector has been legalized?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Agung,

Is in Holland the use of lie detector has been legalized?

WJ



johny251976
User
spacer line
 

Agung,

Is in Holland the use of lie detector has been legalized?

WJ



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Johny,
No, it's not legalized or being used as far as I know.

I don't know if using it would be a good thing or not? The reports on it are rather mixed.

Greetings.
A.A.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Johny,
No, it's not legalized or being used as far as I know.

I don't know if using it would be a good thing or not? The reports on it are rather mixed.

Greetings.
A.A.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Johny,
No, it's not legalized or being used as far as I know.

I don't know if using it would be a good thing or not? The reports on it are rather mixed.

Greetings.
A.A.



Agung
User
User icon of Agung
spacer line
 

Hi Johny,
No, it's not legalized or being used as far as I know.

I don't know if using it would be a good thing or not? The reports on it are rather mixed.

Greetings.
A.A.



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